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A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
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13
WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:10

SpiritAdder · 04/02/2025 23:17

Nope. Just disagreeing with the premise that A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control.

🤣🙄

That is what it is legally. Its also called Indecent Exposure. But considering your laugh emojis, its obvious you have no concern for the law or the hurt and trauma (many of whom are rape victims) women and girls feel.
YAY MEN! YAY PENIS! YAY PATRIARCHY, right?

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:15

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 03:32

Do all of you people seriously not understand what it means to be a trans woman? They’re not saying they’re trans to “get a sneaky peak” at other women. They identify as women. It’s hypocritical to say that you care that one woman (the nurse in this instance) is being made to feel uncomfortable undressing in front of a man, but another woman (the doctor) isn’t allowed to feel comfortable undressing in front of men. Or they are, but they’re not allowed to feel comfortable and included amongst other women? Trans women are women. Full stop. Stop trying to make them out to be some separate entity that needs their own space with a big flashing arrow pointing at it. Allow them to live out their lives in the body they should have been in all along.

92% of transwomen retain their penis and testicles. A male with a cock and balls is NOT a woman. The fact that doctors and teachers and priests train for years, even grooming their victims for years but you think a fully intact male putting on a dress is too far shows how deeply ill-informed you are on this issue, @CorrodedCoffin and so gullible and naive. The vast overwhelming majority do nothing but 'say' they are women, and you want us to take a male at his say so. Yeah, like we don't have decades/centuries of examples of how taking a male at his say so is a risk... Wake up to yourself.

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:18

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 04:12

Why should HER feelings be prioritised over another woman’s? Exactly. Why SHOULD one woman’s feelings be prioritized over another?! Unless one of them is making the other feel unwelcome and ostracised like this nurse has. Do women fear other women being in a changing room with them? What exactly about this is different? Could the other women in the changing room not be lesbians? Maybe all of the women are all mentally undressing eachother. Maybe they all have the capacicity to perve on one another or attack one another before their shift because that’s absolutely what all female doctors and nurses are thinking when they go to change, right?

This is about a MALE with a COCK AND NUT SACK being prioritised over a VULNERABLE FEMALE.

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:19

LillyPJ · 05/02/2025 04:15

It's a shame we seem to be so upset by nudity in this country and automatically think it's all to do with sex always. It really isn't.

Tell me you are not a rape survivor without telling me....

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:20

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 04:31

This is disgustingly transphobic. Shane on you.

You are disgustingly femphobic and misogynist. Shame on you!

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:22

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 04:36

Well clearly you can’t READ written English because the article states that BETH is a trans WOMAN.

He can call himself a seahorse, it doesn't matter. He is a FULLY INTACT MALE, and he doesn't even have a GRC, so legally he is not a transwoman.

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:24

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 04:37

Why are you thinking about the genitalia of the people in the changing room with you? I think maybe you’re the one to be concerned about.

You're clearly not a rape survivor...

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:26

CorrodedCoffin · 05/02/2025 04:53

I’m not sure if you actually read the article because there was no mention of any penis? Or at what part of the transition this woman was in? The nurse said the doctor “looked male” in her opinion and that she had a receding hairline and an Adam’s Apple. Can hardly be equated to flashing someone. Also, flashing requires malicious intent - this woman literally just wants to get changed and get on with her job without some nurse ogling her.

Yes, Peggie the nurse just wants to get changed in the FEMALE changeroom without a male ogling her.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 08/02/2025 11:32

jeaux90 · 08/02/2025 09:24

https://x.com/laraee_brown/status/1887839672568541346?s=46&t=kS1Jlgo9qmN1IdMmSHL7UA

Read this, Uptons notes.

Sandie removed herself from the changing room as she was uncomfortable....deemed unacceptable by Dr Upton.

He wanted to force women to share with him clearly.

Disgraceful.

It's not enough for these men to have access to female spaces. They need there to be females in the space to get whatever gratification it is they require. 🤮

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:40

LillyPJ · 05/02/2025 09:11

I have already stated that I wouldn't be keen stripping off in public. I live in the UK. I'm saying we are trained to think that way - it's not instinct and in most cases it's not experience.

Wrong. Its hardwired instinct in women since cavemen era to not get naked in front of males. Its a very new 'privileged' position to disregard hardwired instinct and pretend males aren't dangerous.

AQuickDeathInTexas · 08/02/2025 11:42

My male boss Steve is a nice enough bloke but if I go into work on Monday and he's now Stephanie and wants me to get undressed in front of him....er no that's not happening. If that's classed as bullying or transphobia then I'm a transphobic bully but I'm still not getting changed in front of him.

I think some people have the luxury of knowing it won't actually affect them so they're happy to give up women's rights.

Someone eg who works in an office, has no reason at all to get changed at work, and can drive home in their own car, might struggle to empathise with an A&E nurse who's going to get covered in every kind of bodily fluid during a shift. The nurse is compelled to get changed at work because it's not acceptable to sit on a bus at the end of her shift whilst wearing scrubs spattered with other people's blood and vomit.

Either that or the person happy to give away women's rights isn't actually a woman at all.

EasternStandard · 08/02/2025 11:46

@BoredZelda do you think a woman can say no to sharing a CR with a male?

And if it's a yes can a woman say no to Dr Upton?

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 12:03

LillyPJ · 07/02/2025 21:34

There are societies/tribes where nudity is perfectly normal. They don't instinctually feel threatened by the opposite sex. What happened to you was horrendous but that isn't indicative of society as a whole.

And where FGM is 'perfectly normal' too. Uncivilised practices aren't right. We should be learning from it, not embracing it. This is 2025 in a first world country.

LucieLemon · 08/02/2025 13:16

"Mainly men. But those figures are misleading because it includes a vast range of things. Don't just believe the headlines; look into the details of the statistics and you'll be surprised how rare it is that women are attacked. We limit our lives needlessly and that's a shame."

The above statement is assuming that the only reason women modify their behaviour, is to mitigate the threat of an unknown assailant jumping out of a bush to attack.

If this were the case then perhaps you'd have an argument that this is a disproportionate response. However, the threat of male violence is more insidious than that. Over the years I have encountered, on numerous occasions, men who have behaved sexually inappropriately. From being groped in a public place to being flashed at when I was a child, and more. I can't emphasise enough how normalised these incidents were, they are reduced to anecdotes I share with friends when we talk. They in turn do the same "hey Lucie remember that creepy bloke way back when ...."
I know several women who have been approached by men when out late, walking by themselves. Who've had a man sit next to them on a bus and feel their leg. Who've had a man make lewd comments.

These stories we share and the lived experiences are what shapes our behaviours, why we advise our nearest and dearest to take measures to stay safe. Why there is an unease in certain circumstance. You are correct in one thing though, it is a very sad reflection on society.

CheekySnake · 08/02/2025 13:43

@LucieLemon you could also argue that the steps women take to protect themselves are the reason why there aren't more attacks, because the things we do are working.

Female caution isn't unnecessary because things aren't that bad - it's the reason why they aren't worse.

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 13:50

WillIEverBeOk · 08/02/2025 11:40

Wrong. Its hardwired instinct in women since cavemen era to not get naked in front of males. Its a very new 'privileged' position to disregard hardwired instinct and pretend males aren't dangerous.

Yes, actually are there any societies where women walk around completely naked in front of men? Sure there are plenty of cultures where women where less (largely due to the climate) , but I can't think of any where women don't cover their genitals. I'm sure if there are there'll be a MNer who will know!

I find the idea that women being wary around men being learned behaviour and not instinct so weirdly naive I'm not sure what to say really.

DisabledDemon · 08/02/2025 13:52

CheekySnake · 08/02/2025 11:03

Does surgery really make a difference, though? All oestrogen does, really, is cause the development of some breast tissue. It doesn't make them women. The idea that it does has been bounced around, but it simply isn't true. Men take oestrogen in an attempt to grow breasts. You can draw your own conclusions as to why a man would want to do that.

A man with breast implants is a man with breast implants. A man taking oestrogen is a man taking oestrogen. If a man loses his penis in an accident or is castrated due to testicular cancer, has he changed sex? Is he now female and should he therefore be in the female changing room? Of course not. He's a man.

A woman who has a hysterectomy isn't male afterwards. She didn't go into the operating theatre female and come out a man.

I imagine (How can I know? I can't, for sure) that the surgery and medication must be a great comfort. At least, outwardly, the person now conforms to what they feel that they should have looked like all along.

But as I've said in another post, DNA is DNA and there's no way to change that.

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 13:55

Hearing the evidence I can't see any bullying of Upton whatsoever, just that he was pissed off someone objected to him in the women's changing room and he started making notes of anything, no matter how minor, that he thought he could use in his campaign to intimidate female staff into doing what he wanted.

SP on the other hand suffered a brutal campaign of bullying by senior staff whose behaviour was nasty and completely unprofessional. I hope she is awarded significant damages.

CheekySnake · 08/02/2025 13:56

@DisabledDemon I'm not convinced about 'comfort.' IMO 'excitement' might be a better way to describe it. But then I don't buy the wrong body argument at all.

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 14:00

I'm not sure it's comforting. It's major surgery which will result in a lot of pain for a result that, frankly, looks nothing like normal genitals.

As for taking hormones, I guess we'll see in the next few decades what the long term effects will be. There's already young women suffering from the kind of serious osteoporosis usually seen in women decades older.

izimbra · 08/02/2025 14:05

I really want someone to do a survey where they correlate the degree of hatred, disgust and contempt towards transgender women, plus the amount of words a person has typed in online trashing transgender people and celebrating the removal of transgender rights, and the likelihood of that same person ever having actually encountered, let alone met and spoken to a transgender person outside of the social media space.

I feel it's very like the conversations Reform voters have about asylum seekers, migrants or refugees (or 'illegals' as the far right likes to call them). Their timelines are awash with links to newspaper articles about crimes by migrants, and furious stories about the intransigence of local authorities in running workshops for migrants or housing migrants. Lots of assertion that 'all illegals want is to come to the UK and scrounge'. Just like the insistence by terfs that all transgender women are sick perverts, whose predominant aim in life is to make women scared and miserable.

If your entire frame of reference for discussing the existence and rights of transgender women is in terms of criminality, you are no different from people who frame all immigration and all immigrants in terms of criminality. It's a fascist stance.

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 14:17

izimbra · 08/02/2025 14:05

I really want someone to do a survey where they correlate the degree of hatred, disgust and contempt towards transgender women, plus the amount of words a person has typed in online trashing transgender people and celebrating the removal of transgender rights, and the likelihood of that same person ever having actually encountered, let alone met and spoken to a transgender person outside of the social media space.

I feel it's very like the conversations Reform voters have about asylum seekers, migrants or refugees (or 'illegals' as the far right likes to call them). Their timelines are awash with links to newspaper articles about crimes by migrants, and furious stories about the intransigence of local authorities in running workshops for migrants or housing migrants. Lots of assertion that 'all illegals want is to come to the UK and scrounge'. Just like the insistence by terfs that all transgender women are sick perverts, whose predominant aim in life is to make women scared and miserable.

If your entire frame of reference for discussing the existence and rights of transgender women is in terms of criminality, you are no different from people who frame all immigration and all immigrants in terms of criminality. It's a fascist stance.

You're clearly very angry that women have started standing up for their rights, but I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to it.

Misogynists have always existed, you're nothing new. But much as you might hate it, women also have rights.

CheekySnake · 08/02/2025 14:29

The frame of reference isn't criminality, it's men.

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 14:35

izimbra · 08/02/2025 14:05

I really want someone to do a survey where they correlate the degree of hatred, disgust and contempt towards transgender women, plus the amount of words a person has typed in online trashing transgender people and celebrating the removal of transgender rights, and the likelihood of that same person ever having actually encountered, let alone met and spoken to a transgender person outside of the social media space.

I feel it's very like the conversations Reform voters have about asylum seekers, migrants or refugees (or 'illegals' as the far right likes to call them). Their timelines are awash with links to newspaper articles about crimes by migrants, and furious stories about the intransigence of local authorities in running workshops for migrants or housing migrants. Lots of assertion that 'all illegals want is to come to the UK and scrounge'. Just like the insistence by terfs that all transgender women are sick perverts, whose predominant aim in life is to make women scared and miserable.

If your entire frame of reference for discussing the existence and rights of transgender women is in terms of criminality, you are no different from people who frame all immigration and all immigrants in terms of criminality. It's a fascist stance.

And actually @izimbra you've got it the wrong way round. It's the fury of TRAs with incompliant women that is like the fury of racists when black people started claiming their rights.

Always angry men, furious with anything that doesn't centre them.

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