AIBU for standing my ground on this wedding issue

[WisteriaGardens]

Hi all, just looking for a little bit of insight/advice. Apologies in advance for the length of the post.

My partner and I are engaged and in the early stages of wedding planning. For background: we are both technically catholic and so are both of our families, however, none of us are practicing at all. So, I was surprised when my partner brought up that he wanted to get married in a church. I pushed back on this at the time with a variety of reasons including, neither of us being religious (he hasn't been to mass outside of having to go with school when he was younger), I have a lot of issues with organised religion generally, I prefer humanist ceremonies as they focus more on the couple. Just to name a few of my points.

The only reason he could give for a church wedding was that his parents had a church wedding and he sees it as traditional. I told him that if I believed for a second it was that important to him I would absolutely consider it and probably do it, however, as he hasn't been to church the entire time I've known him (despite there being a church a 2 minute walk from our house) I felt he was requesting it for the wrong reasons and it wasn't enough to make me compromise on my strong feelings against getting married in a church. I thought we had put the issue to bed because in the months since that conversation he didn't mention it again, didn't start attending mass to show that it is important to him and while visiting venues we've been talking in terms of the entire day being held there.

On Sunday we went to his parents for dinner and after the meal his mum asked me if we had decided where we were getting married ie, ceremony at the venue or in a church and I responded that I think it will all be at the venue as it's more convenient and I have no interest in a church wedding. I mentioned that my partner would like a church wedding but that I felt it didn't make sense as neither of us are practicing catholics. His mum genuinely didn't seem bothered either way as she is actually protestant but was married in a catholic church because it was what fiance's dad wanted, despite her own parents being unhappy with the decision.

However, his dad then piped up and started ranting on about although he didn't attend mass he still felt it was important to be married in the church and felt it was more special for the wedding to be blessed by god and really put down the idea of "just a legal marriage". I bit my tongue so as not to embarrass my fiancé and cause a row. He then said "What about when you have kids? Will they be raised catholic?" I responded that it didn't make much sense to me to raise potential children as catholic when we are not practicing catholics ourselves but that fiance and I would discuss it if we have children. His dad glanced at my fiance and said "I'd be putting my foot down about that". That comment absolutely enraged me and I did snap back "You don't get to put your foot down and neither does fiance". At that point fiance agreed and told his dad to drop it.

It's now caused a massive row between fiance and I which ended with me telling him that he's a hyopcrite and so is his dad to be making such an issue about a religion they don't follow in any way, shape or form. I'm also raging that his dad felt he had the right to try and intimidate me at the dinner table to get his way when our wedding and how we raise any children we might have are nothing to do with him!

I have compromised in regards to the wedding. I'm shy and self conscious so the typical big wedding has never been appealing to me but I knew it was important to my fiance and what he'd always envisioned so I've jumped on board with that, and have been happy to do it for him so with this church thing I just don't think I can concede.

Any thoughts or advice would be so appreciated as I'm so angry just now I can hardly think.

I feel for you, OP. My Dad was Protestant and my Mum Catholic. They married in her church but couldn't have a mass because he wouldn't convert and his family refused to attend.

My late Grandfather told me it was his biggest regret.

It's all such bollocks.

Would a compromise be an Episcopal Church? Although Protestant, it is more similar to Catholic than Church of Scotland.

Your fiance is making some serious demands and seems unwilling to compromise. Not having it about you keeping your name, bullshit.

What's he giving up?

You are getting a sneak peek at what being married to him is going to be like.

This. You have decided that because your fiancé doesn’t go to church it can’t be that important to him which is an incorrect conclusion.

You don’t want to and that perfectly fine but he wants to which is also fine. Belittling his reasons isn’t okay.

FIL was out of line but I don’t congratulate you for clapping back. Emotions were high and you could have said something calmly to make your case and not reevaluate the situation.

You aren’t seeing both sides and until you do (like your fiancé should) YABU.

Not so far, this is the first thing I've pushed back on and he hasn't taken it well. He's been really defensive about it all. I brought up last night that I've made some big compromises already and he totally poo pooed it. I only meant it to say look I've compromised on things that are meaningful to me, you need to takenyour turn but he got so defensive and responded as if I had said it was unreasonable that he wanted a bigger day. Which absolutely wasn't my point, there's no morality involved in wanting a big party in my eyes, it's just not what I would have chosen if I was planning my dream wedding on my own. And about the name thing he said women have taken the husbands name for years so why was it a problem for me? And was defensive saying I was implying he was chauvinistic. Again, that was absolutely not my inference.

I went into the conversation really not wanting an argument but I just felt so dismissed that I lost my cool.

Hopefully he'll have thought about it through the day and calmed down and will be able to think about my perspective rather than just take it as an attack on him.

@Guineapiggywiggy - clearly I can

@Nationsss - none of us was there

How curious! It sounds like history is repeating itself with the grooms DF trying to dictate the wedding ceremony venue. Your MIL and her family had to bend so it seems that your FIL expects the same from you.

Well done for nipping that one in the bud!

It’s actually a good thing that you are facing up to all these potential issues now. As I said they are likely to get worse not better otherwise. I guarantee that neither your DP or his father have any idea the wrench it will be giving up your name. I have to say it worries me that he “ wouldn’t be happy “ with you keeping it professionally either. You are already well down the road to capitulating/compromising, and not yet married. You do need to ask yourself why you feel that you should do this? Why can’t he simply compromise ( ! ) and agree you should keep your own name. Lots to think about, and discuss going forward.

I kept mine 36 years ago ( no longer together ), and never regretted it. I do regret not giving my name to my DC ( not because we split up ). My DD has my surname as a middle name and as an adult has chosen to use both.

Finally I live in Glasgow too. In my experience ( almost 60 ) the football club obsession doesn’t reduce any with age, in fact the reverse. Especially if it’s a whole family thing.

This is the first thing I've pushed back on and he hasn't taken it well. He's been really defensive about it all. I brought up last night that I've made some big compromises already and he totally poo pooed it

I'm truly sorry OP, but this really isn't good and I have to agree with the many who've said don't even consider marrying him until this is resolved ... if it ever is

You mentioned in an earlier post about giving him time to see how he handles his ghastly father going forward, and that makes sense on the face of it, but how will you ever know?
From bitter experience I learned that such men will assure you they've "had a word" when you were conveniently absent and that "everything's sorted" ... until the next time

People get very sentimental and in touch with their cultural roots over weddings and children . It can sometimes take you by surprise.

There are aspects of Catholicism that are as cultural as they are religious. I have many Irish Catholic friends who are not ‘religious’ but still ‘Catholic’.

I am an atheist but I celebrate Christmas.

Listen to your DP. Really listen. Ask him about how it feels traditional for him.

Your FIL was totally out of order. But you sound as if you are being very dogmatic with your DP too.

He absolutely doesn't know how it would hurt me to give my name up so I tried to explain last night by saying think of all the reasons you wouldn't want to give your name up - it's your identity, a tie to your family etc - all those reasons are the same for me. But he just dismissed it.

And I genuinely don't believe my fiancé cares about the church wedding for himself and I had that feeling right from the first conversation about it, I just couldn't put my finger on what the real issue was because I didn't have the full picture. A lot of the replies here don't believe it but I do know him and I knew he wasn't asking about it because he feels a deep tie to god. And I could put up with his dad being a dick if I could depend on him having my back but now I don't know if that would be the case. So I'm left with a lot to think about

OP, he was having none of it....regarding your name after you marry?
Are you seriously thinking this is normal?

You give up your name of a father you love and respect to take the name of a misogynistic pig.

Ah OP, you really need to step back and have a hard think about this.

You are far to good for him.
This has disaster written all over it. Sorry.

A man who utterly dismisses your view on something as big as your own name is the epitome of a misogynistic pig.

His father's son!

Red flags everywhere.

This is the first time you've said no, and as a result you've now found out who he really is.

Do you like what you see?

Do you feel you have to give up a lot of what makes you you in order to be with him and moving forward with the relationship?

If the answer to #1 is no and #2 is yes, you need to call a halt to the madness.

Please at least take a few weeks completely apart to do some hard thinking.

Don't keep on pushing ahead just because you've come this far ( look up the sunk costs fallacy).

OP, respectfully, I don’t think you’re angry enough, or anywhere near. ‘Women were compelled to enact a senseless, sexist ‘tradition’ for years, so why shouldn’t you?’ isn’t something said by someone who fully sees your humanity. And put alongside the other coercion and the browbeating HThis unpleasant father, it’s a nasty pattern.

I'd be glad this all happened before the wedding and not after. There are so many red flags here.

This is how the rest of your life will be. Him making decisions and ignoring your feelings. Do you honestly want to spend your life with someone like

It's far easier to call of a wedding than to divorce

It's far easier to take a pause now and think about if this is right for you rather than be beaten down for the rest of your life.

I think the difference with the name thing was I could see where he was coming from. It is the common thing, everyone I know who has gotten married has changed their name. I knew he would probably get ribbed by his friends if I was the only wife to decline the name change, his parents wouldn't understand and might be offended, to a degree even my parents didnt fully understand my mixed feelings over it. He'll have always envisioned passing his name on to his future wife then his children etc. So whether it's right or wrong I could see why he felt strongly about it, could make sense of it etc. Which was why I gave in on that one, I could see it genuinely meant something to HIM so although I had mixed feelings over it, I was essentially happy to concede on that one. This whole church thing tho is the exact opposite but really it's all the same kind of thing, this is just the one thing I've said no to and I'm seeing the results of that play out.

Attendance prior to a church wedding may be different for Catholic Churches but for c of e, if you live in the parish or have certain other qualifying connections you are entitled to marry in the church

This is absolutely everything to do with the CoE being the established church and simply not true for Catholic Churches, so not really relevant to the OP's dilemma

I would suggest pre marriage counselling (ironically something a lot of Catholic Church weddings will request you do before getting married in church). You need to figure out how to manage disagreements over fundamental big issues - children religion finances families etc. it isn’t necessarily that you need to decide what you’ll do in all scenarios but generally a sense of how you tackle them, what compromise looks like for you, how you support each other etc. it really doesn’t matter what MN thinks of church weddings, whatever you decide on, both of you need to feel heard, validated and understood. Best of luck!

The key is whether your DH genuinely rejects his father's behaviour/ values or whether he's likely to cling into those values and go on to model that behaviour in your marriage. It comes across right now that he's more aligned to his Dad than supportive of you, so I'm wondering... I'm not sure this is a good basis for a long term marriage.

This.

Very much this wot @PrincessOfPreschool said

We got married in a church . Parents were all churchgoers but neither of us were/ are practicing Christians . In fact we are atheists BUT the village church ( Anglican) meant a lot to me as I was a brownie in that pack , my mum sang in the choir and it is the heart of the community. As a child we sometimes went to that church and sometimes went to the Catholic Church further away as we were supposed to be catholic .

Anyway , we both felt it would be a special place that we wanted to be married and we liked the vicar who would marry us. Maybe DH feels like we did? It’s ok to feel this way and ok to prefer a humanist ceremony.

I think the difference with the name thing was I could see where he was coming from. It is the common thing, everyone I know who has gotten married has changed their name. I knew he would probably get ribbed by his friends if I was the only wife to decline the name change, his parents wouldn't understand and might be offended, to a degree even my parents didnt fully understand my mixed feelings over it. He'll have always envisioned passing his name on to his future wife then his children etc. So whether it's right or wrong I could see why he felt strongly about it

I doubt his friends would give it a second thought let alone tease him and if they do so what. Big deal.

You can understand where he's coming from but that doesn't mean you have to give up something important to you. HE should be able to see where you're coming from

we were still married in a registry office because he didn't want me to have to lie in church.

This is the first post point out that you would need to tell a lot of lies in order to be married in a Catholic service.

Having you promise to bring up any children in the religion is only one of the things you would have to promise to do.

It's understandable that it is in the interests of any organisation to perpetuate itself, what better way to do so than insist that you bring up your children in their way.

Your DFiance's father is only belatedly doing what he promised to do when he got married. He hasn't put much effort in but he is trying to 'put his foot down'.

Please be very careful what you promise and agree to do. This is how it will be for the rest of your life.

So in your case I can totally see your POV. Although you don't attend mass, the church and church community is still a big part of your life. Even that's not the case here. Aside from what he did at Catholic school, religion, the church, the priest, the congregation etc are not part of his life and he's never given any hint that he would like that to be different in the future.

Hand on heart, he has done a complete 180 on what he's said in the past. I can't overstate how shocking and confusing this has all been. If that wasn't the case I either wouldn't have agreed to marry him or I'd have really tried to make my peace with doing the church wedding.

Whereas my views and points of view have been the same right through all of this so I feel I've been completely blindsided and that maybe he's lied this whole time and just thought once we were engaged he could steamroller me.

He's still putting the preferences of others (his dad, himself, his friends) ahead of what you actually want

Something in your gut has told you this isn't right. Listen to it.