AIBU for standing my ground on this wedding issue

[WisteriaGardens]

Hi all, just looking for a little bit of insight/advice. Apologies in advance for the length of the post.

My partner and I are engaged and in the early stages of wedding planning. For background: we are both technically catholic and so are both of our families, however, none of us are practicing at all. So, I was surprised when my partner brought up that he wanted to get married in a church. I pushed back on this at the time with a variety of reasons including, neither of us being religious (he hasn't been to mass outside of having to go with school when he was younger), I have a lot of issues with organised religion generally, I prefer humanist ceremonies as they focus more on the couple. Just to name a few of my points.

The only reason he could give for a church wedding was that his parents had a church wedding and he sees it as traditional. I told him that if I believed for a second it was that important to him I would absolutely consider it and probably do it, however, as he hasn't been to church the entire time I've known him (despite there being a church a 2 minute walk from our house) I felt he was requesting it for the wrong reasons and it wasn't enough to make me compromise on my strong feelings against getting married in a church. I thought we had put the issue to bed because in the months since that conversation he didn't mention it again, didn't start attending mass to show that it is important to him and while visiting venues we've been talking in terms of the entire day being held there.

On Sunday we went to his parents for dinner and after the meal his mum asked me if we had decided where we were getting married ie, ceremony at the venue or in a church and I responded that I think it will all be at the venue as it's more convenient and I have no interest in a church wedding. I mentioned that my partner would like a church wedding but that I felt it didn't make sense as neither of us are practicing catholics. His mum genuinely didn't seem bothered either way as she is actually protestant but was married in a catholic church because it was what fiance's dad wanted, despite her own parents being unhappy with the decision.

However, his dad then piped up and started ranting on about although he didn't attend mass he still felt it was important to be married in the church and felt it was more special for the wedding to be blessed by god and really put down the idea of "just a legal marriage". I bit my tongue so as not to embarrass my fiancé and cause a row. He then said "What about when you have kids? Will they be raised catholic?" I responded that it didn't make much sense to me to raise potential children as catholic when we are not practicing catholics ourselves but that fiance and I would discuss it if we have children. His dad glanced at my fiance and said "I'd be putting my foot down about that". That comment absolutely enraged me and I did snap back "You don't get to put your foot down and neither does fiance". At that point fiance agreed and told his dad to drop it.

It's now caused a massive row between fiance and I which ended with me telling him that he's a hyopcrite and so is his dad to be making such an issue about a religion they don't follow in any way, shape or form. I'm also raging that his dad felt he had the right to try and intimidate me at the dinner table to get his way when our wedding and how we raise any children we might have are nothing to do with him!

I have compromised in regards to the wedding. I'm shy and self conscious so the typical big wedding has never been appealing to me but I knew it was important to my fiance and what he'd always envisioned so I've jumped on board with that, and have been happy to do it for him so with this church thing I just don't think I can concede.

Any thoughts or advice would be so appreciated as I'm so angry just now I can hardly think.

I think a lot of things around weddings now don’t necessarily make sense or can be back Ed up by ‘reason’. What about wearing a white dress? I’d wager a guess you are probably wearing white, for the tradition, not because you are a ‘pure virgin’ as it traditionally symbolises. I don’t think you
should have to explain why you would want to wear white (if you do).

Gettin married in a church or the bride wearing white at the wedding are just two of the things people expect at a wedding (although obviously neither is shocking if they don’t happen nowadays) and so I’d compromise on things like this pretty easily.

I got married in a church because it meant a lot to my future MIL. It was no skin off my nose. It was quite a nice building as it happens and I let the religious bits wash by me. It made her happy.

However, I would draw the line at a catholic service. I would not engage in that for anyone. My grandfather was abused in a catholic children's home and I would not support any sect that asks ministers to deny their sexuality and then covers up when that prohibition leads to abuse.

Your FIL is out of order to be so dogmatic. It must make things hard for your fiancé. Stick to your guns, but be understanding for the awkward position your partner finds himself in.

Marriage in a Catholic church has religious vows which include a vow to commit to raising any children in the Catholic faith. I certainly wouldn't agree to that just to have a 'traditional' wedding in a 'nice' church.

Why does op’s views outweigh fiancés views?

Your husband to be is avoiding the wrath of his father! He went to a catholic school so they did cling to the religion. It runs very deep even though, on the surface, it’s not obvious. You are not marrying his DF but he sounds like he control your fiance. Obviously this was not obvious before a marriage came onto the horizon.

If your fiance won’t change his mind - what then? These people are your future. They will want a Catholic education for any dc you have. It will be battles all the way. I would want my fiancé to support my views and back up his demonstrated actions (not going to church) - are you certain about this marriage?

to be married in a church which he never goes to, or a religion which he doesn't follow? if he went to church and followed the religion then yes, he'd have a say, but he's being a hypocrite.

but your fiance doesn't need to suddenly start attending church weekly to justify wanting that tradition

If he wants a church wedding he might have to do that. A lot of churches are quite rightly clamping down on people who want to get married in a church because it's traditional (or in the case of my local church) it looks great in photos

Our minister only marries people who are either church members or attend the church. The majority of weddings before that were people who came because its so picturesque

My brother married in a Catholic church, my sil is a practising Catholic and despite the priest having known her all her life they had to weekly classes before the wedding

If he's not a practicing Catholic a church wedding might not be as easy as he thinks

because he doesn't follow the religion or go to church.

I think you are overreacting somewhat. Lots of people get married in a church and not all of them are fully observant Christians.

your DH is fully entitled to want to get married wherever he wants for whatever reason, regardless of whether you agree with him. A contributing factor might well be that it would make his parents happy, and that’s ok too. He obviously doesn’t get to unilaterally make the decision, but nor do you. It has to be a discussion where you accept his reasons as valid and come to a decision together.

Also you sound a bit disrespectful towards his dad. I feel a bit sorry for them all.

he only wants to get married in church because his Dad wants him to.

It's not about one view trumping others as some PP says, it's about the rationale. DP did not have any real reason other than it's traditional.. .that reason doesn't stand up to OPs.

I do think its hypocritical to get married in a church if you aren't religious but many many people live with that hypocrisy and I think the Church acknowledges it too...

I would never stand in a church that covers up child sex abuse, promising to bring my children up in thst religion.

Would be an absolute deal breaker for me.

OK DP you want a large religious wedding, I want a small, non religious wedding. I'm happy to compromise on either a large, non religious wedding or a small, religious wedding. Then we both get half of what we want. Which would you prefer?

I think you need to have conversations about children and how you would raise them BEFORE you marry him.
Have you discussed other important things, like do you both want kids, financial plans re childcare and maternity leave etc etc? What are his views in sharing housework/childcare etc? The dad acting like you should be spoken to firmly and expected to toe the line gives me the ick, does your dh act like that ever?

I'm hesitant to have much of an opinion re the church wedding as I'd loath any kind of big wedding and wouldn't have agreed to it, I'm also atheist and would never marry someone who considered themselves religious, even if they were 'non practising ' so I am extremely biased in your favour!

His mum genuinely didn't seem bothered either way as she is actually protestant but was married in a catholic church because it was what fiance's dad wanted, despite her own parents being unhappy with the decision.

I'd look out because you've got a live one here OP.

It's easier to take out the religion from the issue, because that just adds heat. This is an issue with your FIL, who wants what he wants and fuck everyone else. He has learned to put his foot down to get his own way. Your OH witnessed this playing out throughout his life so far and the fact that you're saying Not For Me Thankyou, is causing issues.

I would put it on hold for now, I genuinely would, until you and OH can work this out in a way that suits you both. It will be the blueprint for how things go in the future, and when you have DC.

Think long and hard, you're not just marrying him, you're involving yourself slap bang into their family dynamic.

I do agree with this post. I think that Catholicism is not just a belief system, but is a culture - with a lot of parallels to Judaism as a culture - and wanting to have these rituals as key life points is normal - in fact, NOT having them can be quite shattering for the wider family. (Who will, potentially, not see your marriage as 'valid'. That's a big thing in a lot of families.)

However, you and your fiance don't seem to be able to articulate your thoughts about this very clearly, and this poor communication is a bigger concern to me. You do sound a bit 'black and white' in your thinking - which I understand, but this isn't really a logical issue - it's a question of the heart, and tradition, and what feels like the 'thing to do.'

I think you need to sit down, maybe with a relationship counsellor, and talk these issues through carefully. In the scheme of things, this is just one of many huge decisions you will need to make over the course of your life.

We're catholic atheists but church weddings are nice! Not to do with FIL as such, but the church 'vibe' has something special about it :)

which is your right. But lots of people revert to wanting the religious trappings of their youth, even if they are not actually religious. None of my children's god parents are int he slightest bit religious. We all sniggered slightly at the religious aspects. But those relationships, and the formality of them being done in a church and in a formal ceremony have been hugely valuable.

I grew up with a lot of jewish friends and one thing I always liked was that even the least religious ones out there, still saw being jewish as part of their identity and certainly among my jewish friends there was none of this angst about including jewis elements into their lifesstyles, weddings etc, even when they're not religious. One of my closest jewish friends is the least observant jew I've ever met - and eats more pork than I do - but she wouldnt have dreamed of getting married anywhere but under the chuppah.

Of course you’re not being unreasonable. You would, however, be unreasonable to contemplate going ahead with this marriage with a man showing a new, unpleasant side, and who seems totally enmeshed with his parents.

Sounds like you should be doing a lot more talking and a lot less wedding planning!

I know it's easy to get caught up in the thinking that you love him and everything will work out, but these are some very big wrinkles at this stage. You're both not on the same page. It would be foolish to go through with a wedding until you are.

Also don't underestimate the pressure toxic ILs will out on a marriage.

@twoshedsjackson

Attendance prior to a church wedding may be different for Catholic Churches but for c of e, if you live in the parish or have certain other qualifying connections you are entitled to marry in the church, this isn't popular with many church goers because it's obvious they are only doing it for the pretty venue but the law is set by parliament not us! I should add the vicars are not required to conduct the ceremonies of these fair weather marrying couples, meaning people like me are scrambling around to find a retired clergy willing to.

He is Catholic and not actively observing.
You not Catholic and are opposed to faith observation.

He has faith (" small f" ) based belief system which is why he cant explain and he has told you its important to him to be married with in his Faith.

I think that you need to listen to him because you have been telling him your belief system but not hearing when he says he has one too.

Having a faith and acting out rituals are 2 different things.

If her parents spoke to her fiance like that I would expect him to respond robustly, just as OP did to his parents.

This isn't the 1950s and believe it or not women are expected to speak for themselves these days.

You two need to discuss and agree on how you will raise any future children now, including religion. Do not wait until you decide to have kids, and whatever you do, do not wait until you are pregnant.

This is a VERY wise post. When you get married, and often increasingly as time goes on, you see your partner's upbringing reflected in their values/ reactions/ ways of thinking/ ways of handling situations. Your DH has grown up with a Dad like that, who has shown his true colours (a good thing, I think). His Dad sounds a. Very traditional and putting a lot of value on 'tradition' and b. Demanding of getting his own way. You don't sound like you would appreciate either of these in a husband.

The key is whether your DH genuinely rejects his father's behaviour/ values or whether he's likely to cling into those values and go on to model that behaviour in your marriage. It comes across right now that he's more aligned to his Dad than supportive of you, so I'm wondering... I'm not sure this is a good basis for a long term marriage.