AIBU for standing my ground on this wedding issue

[WisteriaGardens]

Hi all, just looking for a little bit of insight/advice. Apologies in advance for the length of the post.

My partner and I are engaged and in the early stages of wedding planning. For background: we are both technically catholic and so are both of our families, however, none of us are practicing at all. So, I was surprised when my partner brought up that he wanted to get married in a church. I pushed back on this at the time with a variety of reasons including, neither of us being religious (he hasn't been to mass outside of having to go with school when he was younger), I have a lot of issues with organised religion generally, I prefer humanist ceremonies as they focus more on the couple. Just to name a few of my points.

The only reason he could give for a church wedding was that his parents had a church wedding and he sees it as traditional. I told him that if I believed for a second it was that important to him I would absolutely consider it and probably do it, however, as he hasn't been to church the entire time I've known him (despite there being a church a 2 minute walk from our house) I felt he was requesting it for the wrong reasons and it wasn't enough to make me compromise on my strong feelings against getting married in a church. I thought we had put the issue to bed because in the months since that conversation he didn't mention it again, didn't start attending mass to show that it is important to him and while visiting venues we've been talking in terms of the entire day being held there.

On Sunday we went to his parents for dinner and after the meal his mum asked me if we had decided where we were getting married ie, ceremony at the venue or in a church and I responded that I think it will all be at the venue as it's more convenient and I have no interest in a church wedding. I mentioned that my partner would like a church wedding but that I felt it didn't make sense as neither of us are practicing catholics. His mum genuinely didn't seem bothered either way as she is actually protestant but was married in a catholic church because it was what fiance's dad wanted, despite her own parents being unhappy with the decision.

However, his dad then piped up and started ranting on about although he didn't attend mass he still felt it was important to be married in the church and felt it was more special for the wedding to be blessed by god and really put down the idea of "just a legal marriage". I bit my tongue so as not to embarrass my fiancé and cause a row. He then said "What about when you have kids? Will they be raised catholic?" I responded that it didn't make much sense to me to raise potential children as catholic when we are not practicing catholics ourselves but that fiance and I would discuss it if we have children. His dad glanced at my fiance and said "I'd be putting my foot down about that". That comment absolutely enraged me and I did snap back "You don't get to put your foot down and neither does fiance". At that point fiance agreed and told his dad to drop it.

It's now caused a massive row between fiance and I which ended with me telling him that he's a hyopcrite and so is his dad to be making such an issue about a religion they don't follow in any way, shape or form. I'm also raging that his dad felt he had the right to try and intimidate me at the dinner table to get his way when our wedding and how we raise any children we might have are nothing to do with him!

I have compromised in regards to the wedding. I'm shy and self conscious so the typical big wedding has never been appealing to me but I knew it was important to my fiance and what he'd always envisioned so I've jumped on board with that, and have been happy to do it for him so with this church thing I just don't think I can concede.

Any thoughts or advice would be so appreciated as I'm so angry just now I can hardly think.

Two people have opposite beliefs that cannot be reconciled, either they are both 'domineering' or neither of them are.
Its the height of hypocrisy to insist you must be married in a church and bring up your children in a strict religion when you can't be bothered to practice it yourself.
Being against hypocrisy is not being 'domineering'.

Ignoring the FIL issue I think you need to sit down with your DF and sort out what you are doing to do. You can't just say 'I don't think your reasons are enough' and you can't leave something as important as this to hang in the air or wait until you have children. Its too late by then to realise you are so misaligned on some aspects of life.

FWIW I married a catholic who didn't attend weekly mass but it was important to him (and is family) that we were married in a church. I didn't object as much as you seem to so it wasn't an issue. We got married in church. Although he wasn't practicing it was important for him for his marriage to be recognised and involving his faith. I understood that it was something that really he didn't want to compromise on.
I've only attended 1 other wedding in a church so its nice to be different too.

My late dad was an atheist Jew. Being Jewish is an ethnicity (which can be revealed via a DNA test) as well as a religion in a way Catholicism isn't.

Our Catholic church requires "at least one year's notice" (as stated in the newsletter every week for intention to marriage. Then you have to go to classes, and I rather suspect attend mass occasionally as well. So assuming your local church is the same, isn't not really an option for you is it?

My DH is a go to mass at least once a week, ministers the eucharist, volunteers at catechist classes type Catholic - and we were still married in a registry office because he didn't want me to have to lie in church. And I was raised Catholic, so it wasn't a case of converting or anything.

Being a non Catholic married to a practising Catholic, I find that the church is very important to them & how things are done. I got married in the church because I loved my DH & it was important to him. We haven't raised the kids as Catholic, that is up to them when they get older to decide. They can attend church with DH if they show interest or stay home with me. In laws have tried to have their say on raising the kids as Catholic, I totally ignore it & leave it to DH to deal with. The most important thing is the discussions DH & I have about it & how we agree. You have to decide where your line in the sand is with these matters & if you can't agree, maybe best to postpone getting married for now.

Your FIL was out of order talking to you that way. He's going to have to learn to rein it in.

You were out of order answering back in that way. You're going to have to learn to rein it in,

You're out of order prioritising your views based on logic and rationale and hypocrisy, over your fiance's view based on tradition. They're all nonsense when it comes to weddings, none more or less than the other.

You're being even more out of order taking a combative approach to something which requires both parties to compromise (hardly bodes well).

You've just described a bunch of individuals trying to be a collective and failing. Your MIL gave in. You're digging your heels in. Sounds like if you continue, your fiance will give in. Healthy relationships aren't about the biggest bully getting their way. They're about give and take.

Also both of these posts (the second one has a lot of truth in it), except that I think the fiance sounds like he's taken after his mum and the OP is more like the dad. Funny how we marry into dynamics we grew up in.

Well, sometimes you can't help blurting out how you feel. FIL is a bossy old boot if he doesn't practice what he preaches. I agree, how dare he! Well 👍🏻 done

There's a bigger issue here than the Church wedding and it's one that you need to sort out before even considering the wedding - what are your views on raising and educating any possible future children? If is views on a church wedding seem to have come out of nowhere, you might be surprised by his views on children and religion. This needs to be discussed and agreed upon now. It might be the case that you are both making incorrect assumptions about what the other one wants.

Perhaps. But I also grew up wth a lot of catholic friends as i originally went to a catholic school and many of them are not religious but I still see their facebook posts with pictures of first holy communion , or christenings etc and I'm sure, in time, their children will ALSO get married in the catholic church. One of my closest friends is catholic but not religious but I've happily attended christenings for her children in Catholic Church and perhaps one day I'll attend their catholic church wedding [shrug]

The point is that it's not weird for someone to want the trappings of their childhood even if they're not religious. it's totally fine for OP NOT to want it - certainly the point I made to my siblings was that you couldn't drag me kicking and screaming into the church we grew up in to get married - but I really don't understand why it's so hard to accept taht someone else might.

She didn´t say it was an ethnicity, she compared how important the church is a key stages in life even for people who are not outwardly religious the rest of the time. You downplay that to your peril. I say this as one.

"Fiance doesn't engage with religion and until this conversation came up had shared the same type of opinions as me so I have been genuinely shocked by all of this."

If you marry him you might have more shocks coming your way.

Your fiance was raised by a misogynist father. He's got an idea of "traditional" from that upbringing and he sees that "traditional" as good, even when it's hypocritical. I would bet he's got some "traditional" ideas about marriage and parenting that you haven't yet seen. Plus his father is going to egg him on.

Before you get married, I would suggest joint counseling with a secular licensed therapist to explore both your ideas in those areas.

Your FIL was rude AF and I think your response was assertive, not rude. It would be a mistake to let him think he's got a voice in your relationship.

For me its less the attendance and more do you believe in God? If not, Id find it actually undermines the marriage because you would be making vows you dont actually agree to and believe in. God is very much in religious vows.

Oddly I do go to church most weeks (protestant) but not a communicant member as I dont fully believe so cant make that promise. My husbands family not religious even a tiny bit but were shocked when we didnt get the baby christened. Im not standing up making promises and vows I don't believe in and cant commit to just for social convention, even if you do get nice cake after.

If my fiance was deeply religious I would do it for them as its important. If they dont go to mass, read the bible or pray and just want it for the pictures, hard no.

Also, @thepariscrimefiles quite frankly, jewish as an ethnicity on a DNA kit is not exactly guaranteed. It's only people from specific lineage who would come up as part (or all) jewish on a DNA kit and that's because of the way DNA sources are categorised. Arguably, someone who came up as having lots of Polish DNA (or Eastern European) could also say they have "catholic" DNA.

Cultural norms or expectations, even if they are based on religion, don't need to be ONLY about religion. I married a mediterranean man. HIs family have all sorts of cultural references linked to that, some of which are originally about the church, but none of them are the slightest bit religious.

I completely understand why you're annoyed. His dad sounds like some of the men I know, full of opinion and outspoken about things that are not their business and therefore no one is interested in their views. Try not to get involved in a conversation with him about it as then he will feel invited to put in his tuppence worth. Be careful not to take the anger you feel towards FIL and direct it at your partner. I can imagine his dad is a difficult man to stand up to so I think he did well backing you at the dinner. You need to be united so you can bat away FIL nonsense together with as little 'fuss' as possible. Good luck. It's important to be clear now that he's overstepping because this sets the tone for future situations. Maybe a venue wedding with a minister (protestant) is a good option as it acknowledges tradition but doesn't tie you into future events. Good luck

This.

I think it is strange to want to get married in a church when you don't attend a church. I'd expect him to go occasionally if it was important to him. Does FIL not realise his son isn't interested enough to ever attend mass? Don't see why you'd bring kids up any different and start going!

It should be nothing to do with FIL.
However, it’s possible for someone’s religion to be important to them even though they don’t typically attend services. You fiancé wants to have a church wedding so I don’t think you should dismiss that or automatically think he’s wrong as you seem to have done. You need to talk.

I am also a bit surprised that none of this has come up before.

There's a lot more talking to be done before you set a date.

Getting married in the local C of E church would circumvent this.

FIL might not be too happy though.

I had a " Christian " upbringing. It wasn't Roman Catholic but I did take religion very seriously and studied it at A level and at University for a time. But I have long been an atheist.
I still retain a life long dislike of hypocrisy. And that includes a dislike of people who have no religious faith, no interest in beliefs, and no intention of attending church getting married in church. A hypocrisy made worse by the modern practice of a wedding often being just about the show and not the marriage so the church is actually just a prop in their spectacle.

I think this issue has raised really fundamental differences between OP and her fiancé and his family. And I think OP would do well to sit down with her fiancé and talk about them in detail before they go further with any marriage plans. Particularly the matter of how they plan to raise any children they may have as regards religion.

I think OP is really rational and thoughtful in the views she holds. Why anyone would call her domineering is beyond me.

And I doubt the local C of E Priest would be too happy being used as the 'fallback' option.

Do catholic people abstain from sex before marriage? Suggest you start living The Catholic Way and he can start going to church to show willing.. He can take his dps every Sunday.. While you have a lie in....

Thank you for all of the responses.

It's unfortunate that some feel I'm disregarding my fiance's feelings because it's genuinely not the case at all. I consider him in everything I do. I know him, we have talked and shared our views on all manner of things including religion and this has genuinely come out of the blue. It's clearer to me since the dinner that it's because he wants to please his dad. He admitted last night his dad has been pushing this topic when I'm not there basically since we got engaged. We have been to many weddings together and he has raved about how nice and personal the humanist ceremonies were and the one catholic wedding we attended, his words were that "it wasn't very romantic".

I am very shy and was actually really proud of myself for standing up to him because I generally am a walk over and it's a source of shame for me that I don't stick up for myself. So if that makes me domineering, I'll take it because it's better than all the times I've sat in silence while someone has been rude to me. And if my parents ever spoke to or about my fiance the way his dad did to me I would expect him to stand up for himself and I'd be right there backing him up.

To those who have said to think carefully about the marriage, I absolutely will. Taking the entire church thing out of it I don't think I could be happy to have anyone interfering in our lives. I think it's a total overstep. Any issues regarding marriage, children etc are for us to hash out. So I do worry this is a sign of things to come with his dad. My dad doesn't run my life so I can't let someone elses dad.

Someone mentioned about tradition and about wearing white etc. No I probably won't wear white. I'm not a traditional gal which my fiance has known the entire time we've been together. I have conceded on giving up my name when I don't want to, as well as the size of wedding so I genuinely do care about my fiance's wants and feelings and have compromised. I feel I have been myself the entire relationship but my fiance is coming up with a whole belief system which is opposite to everything had previously indicated. I would not have chosen to marry a religious person. I thought I had found someone I was on the same wavelength with.

Your most recent post gives even more cause for concern. Why would you go along with a ridiculous, reactionary custom like changing your name to someone else’s in 2025, when you don’t want to? I was very clear with my longterm partner when he wanted to get married (I didn’t) — I would marry him if it meant that much to him, but the wedding would be on my terms, two witnesses in a registry office, not the nonsensical 200- guest extravaganza he would have preferred. I’m a confident person who likes the limelight, but a big wedding to me would have been a hideous waste of time and money.

At no point did either of us even contemplate the possibility that I might change my name, or the surname any children would use. Obviously they would use both surnames. The only discussion was which order they sounded best in, and we ended up flipping a coin on that in the end.

You sound as if you’re being railroaded into a very patriarchal situation. If this man deserves to marry you, he needs to pay attention to your wishes. And he isn’t.