Page 30 | To think they call us Karen because they fear us

InformEducateEntertain · 2025-02-01T12:15:06+00:00

I absolutely hate the term Karen. It's pejorative and deeply unpleasant. Middle aged women (of whom I am one and to whom the term is most generally applied) are bloody amazing. Putting us down for our don't give a f**k badass attitude and willingness to fight back strikes me as lazy categorisation. I'd go as far to say that those who use it are scared by the knowledge that looking the menopause in the eye has given us the courage to have a voice at last. AIBU?

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 15:46

PlanetJanette · 03/02/2025 15:17

You're just asserting a false dichotomy again.

If you're walking down the street and a man turns to you and called you a bitch and you felt scared or angry; and I'm walking down the street and a man passed me and said absolutely nothing and I felt scared and angry - it is ludicrous to suggest we must treat both of our feelings the same.

In that scenario your feelings have legitimately arisen from the behaviour of that man. My feelings might be genuinely felt, but they are not the responsibility of the man who passed me.

Becker might well have genuinely felt 'attacked', but that is on here because Black did absolutely nothing to create those feelings. And in falsely claiming that she had attacked her, Becker played into a racist trope against Black.

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Who decides whose feeling are valid though? You? I don’t think you are intelligent or compassionate enough to ever make that kind of judgement on other women

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 15:47

PlanetJanette · 03/02/2025 15:34

The call the manager trope of course is just another manifestation of the same sort of power dynamics.

I'm not talking about where someone makes a perfectly reasonable request of customer service. But the scenario you're describing has inherent within it a middle class white person trying to exercise control or retribution over someone usually younger, often working class and often a person of colour, by making unfounded or unreasonable complaints about their treatment, often leaning heavily into victimhood.

The racial element can still be present given the higher than average proportion of people of colour who work in the services sector, but the same power dynamics (white middle class woman unreasonably exerting control over people with comparatively less power and privilege) are at play.

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Just to be clear - is a Karen a Karen if it’s a black or poor woman making a shouty complaint to a white person?

Just want to make sure I get the absolute specifics written down

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 16:01

PlanetJanette · 03/02/2025 15:34

The call the manager trope of course is just another manifestation of the same sort of power dynamics.

I'm not talking about where someone makes a perfectly reasonable request of customer service. But the scenario you're describing has inherent within it a middle class white person trying to exercise control or retribution over someone usually younger, often working class and often a person of colour, by making unfounded or unreasonable complaints about their treatment, often leaning heavily into victimhood.

The racial element can still be present given the higher than average proportion of people of colour who work in the services sector, but the same power dynamics (white middle class woman unreasonably exerting control over people with comparatively less power and privilege) are at play.

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Lots of service staff are treated like crap by the public, I've got plenty of experience of that. Think about bus drivers, here in Edinburgh their cabs are fully enclosed so they have physical protection.

Do you think they're worried that middle class, middle aged white women might attack them if they don't get the service they want?

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:05

PlanetJanette · 03/02/2025 11:52

Yes, it is an opinion piece. That reflects the experience of the author. And which reflects the experiences recounted by many other women of colour.

You continue in your determination to ignore or dismiss the experiences of women of colour in this debate.

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That opinion is also written by an author who clearly no understanding of the history of the term, how it came into use and the gendered forms of racist oppression it describes.

Without that context it’s a puff piece.

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:07

ARealitycheck · 03/02/2025 12:41

Hard disagree. Some Women use tears as a get out of jail card when called out on their behaviour. They will do it no matter the sex or ethnicity of the person calling them out.

I'm going to call out a couple of inconsistencies within that report and the attached video.

From Jully Black (Black Woman) to Jeanne Becker (White Woman) during the video which I have paraphrased:
You have your feelings and they are used so take them to the altar.

From Winnie Dunn at a subsequent discussion:
In other words, the woman saw a personal attack where there wasn’t one and decided to remind the panellists that as a member of the white majority she ultimately has their fate in her hands.

Anyone with a modicum of sense cannot complain of lived experiences and their personal feelings, but then basically say bugger off to another when they are discussing their feelings.

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It is overwhelmingly a white woman thing because only white women historically have been able to weaponise their tears.

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 16:07

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 16:01

Lots of service staff are treated like crap by the public, I've got plenty of experience of that. Think about bus drivers, here in Edinburgh their cabs are fully enclosed so they have physical protection.

Do you think they're worried that middle class, middle aged white women might attack them if they don't get the service they want?

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It’s just such a - to be very blunt - dim viewpoint. “some people say middle aged white women are the worst therefore if they don’t accept this slur we are going to call them names”.

Not only does actual data point to women very much NOT being the problem re aggression and racism, we have to accept this? What bullshit

And as I’ve said before - we live in a patriarchal misogynistic society. This is a fact, backed up by endless data. Meaning a good chance that every other person on the street is a misogynist - Why the hell should women have to accept these people making the rules for them?

I think the Oppression Olympics is seriously counter productive and serves little purpose other than halfwits coming out with with discrimination they believe is “allowed”, but I’ll play along for a moment - if we DO have Oppression Olympics, why are white women so far down the podium? White women are still women who form a large part of the women who experience 1 in 10 rapes, 2 murdered a week by men, 1 in 5 sexually assaulted and 1 in 4 experience DV. Why do we have to pretend they don’t matter?

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:08

JandamiHash · 02/02/2025 21:06

Sure you do

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Calling somebody a liar because you cannot fathom people thinking differently to you.

Of course.

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 16:09

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:05

That opinion is also written by an author who clearly no understanding of the history of the term, how it came into use and the gendered forms of racist oppression it describes.

Without that context it’s a puff piece.

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So a WOC’s opinion doesn’t matter now? Because it doesn’t align with yours.

my god I am astounded at the arrogance of some on here who think their opinion is fact. Who is telling you that you’re so important?

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 16:10

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:07

It is overwhelmingly a white woman thing because only white women historically have been able to weaponise their tears.

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ONLY white women, no other demographic ever?

Blimey it must be pretty cool to be omnipotent that you know certain situations definitely never happened

ARealitycheck · 03/02/2025 16:11

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:07

It is overwhelmingly a white woman thing because only white women historically have been able to weaponise their tears.

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By that reckoning though, it is overwhelmingly a sexist thing. As historically only some Women of any ethnicity have been able to weaponise their tears.

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:12

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 14:43

Except you’ve said you’ll continue to harm white women because they’re white and therefore less important. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that is racist? How do you respond
when people say that about black people?

I agree that when we talk about racism POC should always be centered in the conversation and actions. But you can do that without showing active hostility and, yes, racism, towards white people. Who is it helping to say “I’m never ever listening to what white people want ever [even when you know white women are still an oppressed group] and no I won’t stop harming them be ause POC matter more”. Who is this rigid hierarchy helping? Do you expect people to just say “Yes miss!” And fall in line?

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I hope you take this same stance when men complain about the way that some discussions of sexism make men “feel bad”.

LookingAtMyBhunas · 03/02/2025 16:13

Mittens67 · 01/02/2025 12:26

The worst thing is how some women adopt this term to use against other women.

I agree. My friend called me it the other day because I said I'd left a bad review on a letting agent who'd kept £1700 of my rent 😦

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:13

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 15:26

The term Karen has never meant racism in the UK. It means 'call the manager', that's all it's ever meant. And we can and will object to it because it is sexist.

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This is not true.

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 16:13

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:07

It is overwhelmingly a white woman thing because only white women historically have been able to weaponise their tears.

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I live in Scotland which is 95% white, and historically whiter than that. Crying is just crying.

GretchenWienersHair · 03/02/2025 16:14

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 15:26

The term Karen has never meant racism in the UK. It means 'call the manager', that's all it's ever meant. And we can and will object to it because it is sexist.

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To white people. To black people (even in the U.K.) it has always meant what another prosper described as “toxic white femininity”.

ARealitycheck · 03/02/2025 16:16

GretchenWienersHair · 03/02/2025 16:14

To white people. To black people (even in the U.K.) it has always meant what another prosper described as “toxic white femininity”.

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Where is the connection between somebody being a 'Karen' and being a racial slur? I don't get it?

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:17

I expect people who want to provide an opinion on a topic to be fully educated on that.

She clearly is not so it is nothing more than a puff piece. Quite funny in parts though. I will give her that.

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:18

GretchenWienersHair · 03/02/2025 16:14

To white people. To black people (even in the U.K.) it has always meant what another prosper described as “toxic white femininity”.

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^^ This.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 03/02/2025 16:19

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 15:43

Excuse me but I’m not the one who’s been doing comparing. You are. You’ve literally said that you will continue to harm women because they’re white and aren’t the most oppressed. THATS comparing. You then used a misogynistic slur towards me because you’ve made the assumption that I’m white. And you think you’re in the right?

I’ll say this to you - all your views are abstract and subjective. There are some people who think transwomen - that is a man (usually white) who identifies as a woman - is part of the most oppressed group in society. What would you say to it being acceptable to use racist slurs because well transwomen have it harder”?

Or what if I decided that actually white women have it worse than black women? And I used racist slurs against them because “white women have it harder”? See the problem here? I know you’re a narcissist as well as a racist, but not everyone does or have to agree with your viewpoint, so how does it work your isolated little bubble when others don’t agree with you?

racism exhibited in forms like falsely labelling women of colour as aggressive or attackers, is peak Karenism by the way.

When did I do that? Please, show me the posts. Or are you just a liar?

Being racist, lying continually about what other people have said, saying you will connote to harm an oppressed group because of some oppression hierarchy, is peak Cuntism by the way

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Are you comparing Karen to racist slurs?

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:21

Yes. Historically only white women in the specific English speaking countries where Karen is used.

Pick up a history book and have a read.

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:23

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 16:13

I live in Scotland which is 95% white, and historically whiter than that. Crying is just crying.

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Ok.

(Having discussions with some white women on the topic of racism is often like trying to have discussions with some men about sexism.)

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:25

ARealitycheck · 03/02/2025 16:11

By that reckoning though, it is overwhelmingly a sexist thing. As historically only some Women of any ethnicity have been able to weaponise their tears.

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It’s not “some women of any ethnicity.”

It is specifically with regards white women specifically when dealing with people of colour.

JandamiHash · 03/02/2025 16:25

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:12

I hope you take this same stance when men complain about the way that some discussions of sexism make men “feel bad”.

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The difference is I don’t try and tackle sexism with “let’s call men harmful names!”. I do things that actually work

What is ACTUALLY being achieved by normalising a sexist name? Have instances of racist attacks reduced? Are people more aware? What are the benefits

ARealitycheck · 03/02/2025 16:26

JHound · 03/02/2025 16:25

It’s not “some women of any ethnicity.”

It is specifically with regards white women specifically when dealing with people of colour.

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Is that a proven fact or an opinion?

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 03/02/2025 16:27

MorrisZapp · 03/02/2025 16:13

I live in Scotland which is 95% white, and historically whiter than that. Crying is just crying.

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It sounds like you probably don’t know much about racial issues then if you’re surrounded by white people.

I imagine the other 5% have their own experiences.

How is a white woman who primarily lives around white people going to understand racism? Especially since you aren’t willing to listen to poc?