To think they call us Karen because they fear us

[InformEducateEntertain]

I absolutely hate the term Karen. It's pejorative and deeply unpleasant.

Middle aged women (of whom I am one and to whom the term is most generally applied) are bloody amazing. Putting us down for our don't give a f**k badass attitude and willingness to fight back strikes me as lazy categorisation.

I'd go as far to say that those who use it are scared by the knowledge that looking the menopause in the eye has given us the courage to have a voice at last.

AIBU?

Also, even with a non-racial meaning of the term Karen - no one is being labelled a Karen for politely and reasonably asking for a product that they paid for and which has been forgotten.

He does claim to be a man, so it’s rather fascinating how invested he is in black women’s experience with racism.

And this is what my original post was all about. What is unreasonable and what is standing up for oneself/ other people?

Obvs it was also about crushing impact of a few thousand years of the patriarchy and the invisible nature of middle age.

What it wasn't about was racism as I had zero clue about the use of the word in this context. I have learned something and am glad to have done so.

Sorry but that just is not true. Whatever the use within the Black community may be, when "Karen" spread to the white community it also started to be used to shut women, especially older women, up.

As I've said a few times in this thread already (and speaking here of white on white Karening only), all that calling someone a Karen tells you is that the person calling them Karen didn't like what they were saying. It doesn't tell you anything about whether that is a reasonable position or not. Yes, she might be unreasonable. But on the other hand, it might be that the person involved is a nasty git who doesn't like being challenged or spoken back to.

I think ARealitycheck must be a troll as nobody could be that dense when the racial meaning of the term Karen has been clearly explained numerous times.

Unfortunately this isn't true. Women ARE being called Karen as a generic insult to shut them up in debate. Just as older people are told "OK Boomer" and young people are called snowflakes.
There are women on the thread who have described their experience of this, and in the spirit of mutual respect that means no one has the right to deny peoples experience of racism, equally you should not be denying people experience of sexism and ageism; or worse, suggesting that if they've been called Karen it is because they've been behaving like one, because this simply isn't true.
I started following this thread with a firm dislike of the term, because it has absolutely been misappropriated, and is without doubt used to insult women like me.
I have learned from the thread that while that may be so, the importance of people retaining a term to describe racism outweighs my offence if those using it incorrectly level it at me.

I've never once heard, or heard of, someone who says 'Excuse me, you forgot my chips, would you mind getting them please?' called a Karen for doing so.

It is entirely improbable that they would be. And if they were, misuse of a term doesn't say anything about the term itself, but rather the person using it incorrectly.

I think the 'white on white' use of Karen is interesting, because I don't believe that the label need only now apply to white women who are being racist per se. I think it is perfectly consistent to be used where we're talking about any abuse of power and privilege. Race is the most obvious example, but class or social standing is part of it too (as well as the obvious intersections of race and class).

But what is usually absent from the (unreasonable) version of Karen is the weaponisation of femininity. So whereas the specifically racist version of a Karen is all about using victimhood, vulnerability and emotion to demonise or control a person of colour; the 'Karen' who screams and shouts and demands to see the manager because someone younger, poorer or with less social capital than her forgot her chips in McDonalds is certainly abusing her position of relative privilege - but not necessarily in a way that is specifically gendered, so that is a much more interesting test case for whether and when the term is appropiate.

Instead we got a thread full of people denying and minimising racism, rather than having a thoughtful discussion about the conditions when terms might usefully expand beyond original use and when they might not.

@PlanetJanette

I've never once heard, or heard of, someone who says 'Excuse me, you forgot my chips, would you mind getting them please?' called a Karen for doing so.

I'm really pleased that hasn't happened to you. It sucks.

There's several women on this reddit thread talking about direct personal experiences https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/qli0b9/no_not_every_woman_who_stands_up_for_herself_is_a/

Here's a few:

"I got to to "don't be such a fucking Karen" at the store this week by the man behind me in line when the cashier accidentally rang something through twice, to which I replied "excuse me, I think you rang that last item through twice" and had to get the manager to remove it because it was more than $10. I guess in that dude's mind, I should have shut my mouth and just payed for an item I did not buy."

"I've been called a "Karen" for politely but firmly asking for a refund when the "vegan" meal I ordered contained meat."

"My mom was called a Karen for first calling out of her window, and then walking out to confront a group of younger dudes who were throwing and breaking shit off of a balcony into the only driveway that she had to drive up/out to her apt (in the fourplex that she OWNS)."

"I’ve heard incel guys call women ‘Karens’ when they have to use an all-female gym out of their safety because of those same incel guys."

"I recently got called a Karen for calling out racism on Nextdoor. Ever since then I've learned that when most folks say "Karen" what they really mean is the c-slur"

So while I take your point about how it should be used, the reality is it is being used to label older women problematic for saying anything the Karen-er does not want to hear.

It's strange that I don't know a single woman who has been called a Karen. Could it be that their recollections may be different from how these people saw the behaviour? None of them will write "I was being demanding and rather awful and he called me a karen." Because most people believe, genuinely that they are above reproach. People delude themselves into thinking they are reasonable and everyone else is mean. Whenever someone says "so and so treated me badly" I always wonder what they contributed to the problem. Why? Because your average person isn't fundamentally mean for no reason. From my experience and those around me.

The average person isn't fundamentally mean enough to use the term Karen where its undeserved; yet the average middle aged woman is mean enough for you to conclude the likelihood was these women did deserve it? Do you think meanness is a trait disproportionately present in older women?

I'm sure the people who Karen'ed them probably did think they were being demanding and awful. That does not mean they actually were though, does it? As you say, "your average person isn't fundamentally mean for no reason", and studies show again and again that women are socially policed to different standards of behaviour than men.

I've not been called Karen (to my face), but I've certainly had the experience of having polite concerns or complaints or requests rebuffed and having the choice of smiling sweetly and giving up, or pushing back against someone who really wanted me to shut up and go away and stop making everything difficult.

Just don’t use a woman’s name as the shorthand for any insult.

When one of your supporters @GretchenWienersHair previously said that black Brits affiliate with black Americans more than they do white Brits, that does suggest there is an integration issue. If you are telling the majority of us (white, asian whatever) that the use of a name is offensive or racist because of an American interpretation.

After all nobody (sensible) gets their knickers in a twist about an American calling his trousers pants. Or the same American describing a big bottom person as having a large fanny, where of course here in the UK it is something completely different.

This is a really challenging conversation to read as there is so much to unpack, and I’ll fess up I’m not entirely sure I get it. So please ignore me if this a lot of unintelligible guff. It seems to me any pejorative directed at any one woman is sexist against all women? Do I have that right? If so does that mean all pejorative language directed at any group is an automatic moral wrong?

Does that mean we cannot name any problem behaviours exhibited by any group? Like mansplaining or manspreading? Cos it seems to me maybe those terms have utility? Although I make the connection quite deliberately because I’ve definately seen women mansplaining or manspreading (maybe not sat in a train with legs splayed open, but certainly in terms of taking up seating space with bags etc). Yet then again I’ve also 100% seen men behaving like the traditional “Karen”.

In fact I’ve worked in a public facing retail position, way before this Karen thing became something, and we sales staff all recognise the behaviour, but we never once identified one gender more likely to behave in such a way. Some people were just assholes. Are any of these things inherently gendered behaviour? I’m not so certain but perhaps they are. I’m certainly not qualified to judge that.

Now we bring in the racial element, where people now say it’s a particular Caucasian woman behaviour to be a Karen, but again I’m not so sure. I’ve certainly dealt with the occasional entitled minority customer, but again not in any sort of number that would lead me to conclude any one race is any more guilty of acting entitled.

Where I run into trouble here is anyone making the claims that sexism or racism are current societal problems we need to tackle I’d say I entirely agree. However does each and every rude or entitled action by a male or white person have to include a racial or sex based bigotry? I suspect probably not in each and every instance but the trouble is how do we know? I certainly don’t.

Part of me is on board with the terms like mansplaining, manspreading or Karening if its purpose is to lead us towards a slightly more kind and considerate society/culture, but we have to all be ultimately equally working with and subject to the same standards of manners. We don’t have to necessarily be beholden to the exact same rules of etiquette that can be particular to different communities. I dunno I’m rambling a bit, I’ll try and read more and think on it in more depth.

First of all, I am nobody’s “supporter”. I have my own experiences, my own views, and my own opinions. Just because those align with those of other black women on this thread, it does not mean we’re simply saying these things to “support” one view.

Secondly, I am not sure you understand what I mean by “cultural affiliation”, given that you’ve already shown your comprehension skills to be so lacking, so let me break it down for you.

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines culture as, “the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group. also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time. popular culture.” The entire definition is relevant here, but I’d like to draw your attention to the second half of the definition - “…features of every day existence … shared by people in a particular place or time”. Given that Black people experience anti-blackness across the globe, even on the very continent of Africa, I think it’s reasonable to assume that this will be the case for Black Britons too.

Now I will move on to the Americanisms. It is no secret that American media has been pumped into the UK for decades now. The USA has had a very distinct Black American culture for as long as the country existed in it’s stolen form, and, given the sheer number of Black people there, it is a given that Black media will also spread across the globe. So when I, a Black Brit, look across the different types of media I’m surrounded by, am I going to consume those which reflect my own experiences or not? Of course I am. Music, humour, language - these are all fundamental parts of the cultural makeup. We pick these up.

Now let’s move away from media and turn to real life scenarios. When most people seek out Black role models, the first thing we come across are those from the Civil Rights Movement, namely Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. Now of course, I, an adult, am very aware that these are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Black role models, however when you are a young Black person in the U.K., how do you think this might shape your own understanding of blackness? You see Black Americans as the ones to look up to.

Thus, a cultural affiliation is born.

The role models you speak of without sounding harsh, are very much history. I notice you chose two American civil rights activists from the early 1960's as examples. That was over 60 years ago. A teenager looking up at them growing up would be in their 70's today.

What about Michael Jackson, Barak Obama, Bill Cosby, Mike Tyson, Aretha Franklin. All influential figures and more in age with todays middle agers.

You CANNOT just claim racism from an insult that has a totally different meaning here than in America. To expect that imo would be entitled, unreasonable and demanding. All the things that a 'Karen' in the UK would be characterised as.

Even if what you said were true, the people you have listed are all a) also very old, and b) also Americans, so do nothing to support your point.

I am also not middle aged. I am a millennial who grew up watching films like Friday, Love and Basketball, Soul Food. I listened to music from artists like Ashanti, Destiny’s Child, Lil Wayne. All black American figures just like the ones you have listed, so clearly the Black American influences cross generations.

I am also a teacher. Guess who the children I teach (Black, white or Asian) bring up every time I’m made to go through the rigmarole of the UK’s Black History Month? You guess it - Rosa Parks and MLK. Now of course, as a Black adult who is far more knowledgable about black influences now than I was at their age, I make it my mission to go beyond that, but they’re obviously getting those influences from somewhere.

You CANNOT just claim racism from an insult that has a totally different meaning here than in America

And again - not a single soul has claimed the term “Karen” is racist (except for you, claiming it’s “racist towards white people”). You have been told this numerous times by numerous posters now. One more time, it is the being a Karen that is racist. The “Karens” are the racists, not the people using the term.

You have just said it yourself. Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King. Black history month.

Why did you not use the more recent examples in an attempt to prove your point? I suspect as none of them have any connection whatsoever to the origins of the slur of using a name to describe a person. As we all know by now it's origins are in 1850's. Language changes over time and location. To expect the average British person to change their language and use of phrases to appease what I suspect will be a tiny minority (I'm confident a great many black people don't consider it a slur) is ridiculous imo.

The origin of the term which you want to claim in the name of cultural appropriation, was directed at white women by black women in the 1850's. To target one ethnicity with a slur no matter how justified you may feel it was is racist.

Being a Karen (unpleasant, demanding, rude etc) just means that person is unpleasant. It doesn't mean they are being racist. It would only be racist if they used their 'Karen' like behaviour against one ethnicity only. As we all know this isn't the case here in the UK.

Oh my goodness, you are either incredibly dense or simply hellbent on finding a point where there is none. The word is still being used by Black people across the globe today to describe racist white women who behave in a certain manner, regardless of where it came from. The behaviours of these women have not changed since the 1850s, so why should the word?

Social media has made the word spread to white people who, with their limited understanding of the nuances of racism, took it to simply mean a demanding, entitled woman and have either ignored or not noticed the racial element of it, but that does not change anything for those of us who have been using the term in its original concept since day dot.

IMO you are trying to find racism and appropriation where none exists. It may well be used as an insult by some black women towards some white women in some parts today. But the only thing that matters is how it is being used in the UK by the majority, and as that is not in any way directed at a single race. It is not unreasonable like you are trying to claim.

We do not get to dictate how the uses of words and phrases change over the years and locations, you especially as a teacher should know that better than anyone.

I’m not trying to dictate anything. It’s the white women claiming the word “Karen” should not be used who are trying to dictate language. I, a Black woman, will not stop describing a certain type of racist white woman as Karens just because you refuse to understand its meaning.

And if the meaning to the white woman making or receiving the insult are just as entitled to their interpretation of it. As it has no racial connotation in the UK, you cannot demand it be withdrawn from use, handed back to the black community or anything else.

The end! 😁