To think they call us Karen because they fear us

[InformEducateEntertain]

I absolutely hate the term Karen. It's pejorative and deeply unpleasant.

Middle aged women (of whom I am one and to whom the term is most generally applied) are bloody amazing. Putting us down for our don't give a f**k badass attitude and willingness to fight back strikes me as lazy categorisation.

I'd go as far to say that those who use it are scared by the knowledge that looking the menopause in the eye has given us the courage to have a voice at last.

AIBU?

Indeed. Thank you ladies for a worthwhile discussion where I learnt something. In answer to the initial question I think it isn't fear but to control and minimise women. Some people aren't offended, super cool, never complained in public or met someone who uses the word so don't mind or at times offer any sympathy or solidarity for those that do. Then the massive learning points for me were the origins of the word in articulation of racial discrimination. Thanks again for sharing that ladies and for the really strong arguments for women to be heard and treated equally.

Yes, it is an opinion piece. That reflects the experience of the author. And which reflects the experiences recounted by many other women of colour.

You continue in your determination to ignore or dismiss the experiences of women of colour in this debate.

Not at all. I’ve even given other experiences of WOC in this debate - they happen to be different to the view you’ve given me.

Why won’t you listen to women when they say they don’t want to be called Karen because it’s hurtful and offensive and far removed from its original intention?

Hard disagree. Some Women use tears as a get out of jail card when called out on their behaviour. They will do it no matter the sex or ethnicity of the person calling them out.

I'm going to call out a couple of inconsistencies within that report and the attached video.

From Jully Black (Black Woman) to Jeanne Becker (White Woman) during the video which I have paraphrased:
You have your feelings and they are used so take them to the altar.

From Winnie Dunn at a subsequent discussion:
In other words, the woman saw a personal attack where there wasn’t one and decided to remind the panellists that as a member of the white majority she ultimately has their fate in her hands.

Anyone with a modicum of sense cannot complain of lived experiences and their personal feelings, but then basically say bugger off to another when they are discussing their feelings.

'Not at all' - your posts are littered with dismissals of the views and experiences of women of colour. You then found one who agreed with you and decided that personal opinions mattered after all.

As to why I 'won't listen' to white women who don't want to be labelled with the term Karen if they are engaged in the sort of behaviour that merits it, it is simply because I don't think the feelings of white women matter more than women of colour when it comes to discussing the various manifestations of racism.

But Jully Black wasn't talking about personal feelings. She was talking about endemic and ingrained racism, Becker consistently spoke over her and when Black continued to make her point - with zero reference to Becker herself - Becker then invented that she (Black) had attacked her.

We don't need to pretend that all feelings are equally legitimate. Black objectively did not attack Becker. Becker's false claim to the contrary is, of course, precisely the sort of thing many of us on this thread have been talking about.

No Jully Black's words during that interview were to Jeannie Becker 'You said you feel like, well your feelings and you can take it to the altar.' Hardly the words of somebody willing to involve themselves in constructive dialogue.

I haven't seen the full interview, but from the snippet provided neither one can claim moral high ground on interrupting. However out of the two I'd say Ms black was worse.

Sorry but that's just not true.

When the video opens, Black has the floor and is making a point. Becker then loudly interrupts her. Black's only 'interruption' is to continue making her point over the interruption of Becker.

Second, at the point that Becker accuses Black of attacking her, Black had said nothing about Becker or to Becker. Everything she said was a broader point about racism and colonialism. Becker then does the whole 'why are you attacking me?' schtick.

Let's be clear - there is no reasonable interpretation of what Black was saying that can be construed as her attacking Becker. Becker claiming otherwise is a perfect example of a white woman turning herself into the victim of a black woman, with zero foundation (and in fact, in this exchange, the only transgressor was Becker, for interrupting in the first place).

Black is absolutely right to say that Becker's feelings of being attacked are not her responsibility in that context, because she did absolutely nothing to attack Becker.

Interrupiting is rude, but, in normal society raising your voice during an argument (which Black certainly does) is considered a sign of aggression. She may not consider it as such, but Beckers feelings are equally as valid as feelings about any other subject.

Unless what we are saying is that feelings are personal, and one person isn't responsible for how another person feels?

That is nonsense. Black does not 'raise her voice' beyond what is normal when making a point and having to be heard over someone interrupting you. For much of the video, Becker is actually speaking louder than Black.

Honestly, anyone watching that video and concluding that Jully Black is aggressive is really demonstrating precisely the problem so many women of colour encounter. You're really demonstrating the standards to which women of colour are held that does not extend to white women.

You misunderstand. My “not at all” isn’t dismissing WOC. It dismissing your false claims against me.

So you won’t listen to white women asking you to stop doing something damaging to them, because they don’t matter enough because of their race?

Blimey and you call me racist!

What about the many WOC who don’t like women being called Karen?

Oh and on feelings...

Of course feelings are personal. But sometimes someone's actions can legitimately be blamed for the feelings they around in another person, and sometimes they cannot. We don't need to pretend there is a false dichotomy where some feelings are either all legitimate or all illegitimate.

There is absolutely zero basis for Becker to 'feel' attacked, and levelling the accusation against a personally reasonable black woman is precisely the sort of behaviour that I think people of colour have a right to call out and label.

Wow you got fairly far into the thread without rolling out the old white people being a victim of racism nonsense.

And yes, when it comes to anti-racism, the feelings of white people matter less than the feelings of those who are the subjects of racism. Centering white feelings in a discussion of manifestations of racism against people of colour is, of course, a manifestation of racism in and of itself.

I disagree, If we were having a face to face argument and I raised my voice, I bet you would feel intimidated.

As for having the right to call out behaviour you consider unreasonable. That must apply to everyone. Not just one group.

Except you’ve said you’ll continue to harm white women because they’re white and therefore less important. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that is racist? How do you respond
when people say that about black people?

I agree that when we talk about racism POC should always be centered in the conversation and actions. But you can do that without showing active hostility and, yes, racism, towards white people. Who is it helping to say “I’m never ever listening to what white people want ever [even when you know white women are still an oppressed group] and no I won’t stop harming them be ause POC matter more”. Who is this rigid hierarchy helping? Do you expect people to just say “Yes miss!” And fall in line?

Some people are really of the mindset of “To solve the oppression problem we have to even it out and throw it back as much as we can at the other group” forgetting that this only serves to cause more hate.

She didn't raise her voice. Becker was the louder of the two through most of that exchange.

You're proving the point of the article.

Comparing the 'harm' to some white women that you perceive from the term Karen to the harm suffered by women of colour from systemic and ingrained racism, including racism exhibited in forms like falsely labelling women of colour as aggressive or attackers, is peak Karenism by the way.

You can clearly hear Ms Blacks voice rise. She was also the louder in the exchange.

The only thing being proven is a desire by some for an uneven playing field whenever a discussion about equality is brought up. Either everyones feelings, beliefs and experiences are justified for discussion, or nobodies is.

You're just asserting a false dichotomy again.

If you're walking down the street and a man turns to you and called you a bitch and you felt scared or angry; and I'm walking down the street and a man passed me and said absolutely nothing and I felt scared and angry - it is ludicrous to suggest we must treat both of our feelings the same.

In that scenario your feelings have legitimately arisen from the behaviour of that man. My feelings might be genuinely felt, but they are not the responsibility of the man who passed me.

Becker might well have genuinely felt 'attacked', but that is on here because Black did absolutely nothing to create those feelings. And in falsely claiming that she had attacked her, Becker played into a racist trope against Black.

The term Karen has never meant racism in the UK. It means 'call the manager', that's all it's ever meant. And we can and will object to it because it is sexist.

The call the manager trope of course is just another manifestation of the same sort of power dynamics.

I'm not talking about where someone makes a perfectly reasonable request of customer service. But the scenario you're describing has inherent within it a middle class white person trying to exercise control or retribution over someone usually younger, often working class and often a person of colour, by making unfounded or unreasonable complaints about their treatment, often leaning heavily into victimhood.

The racial element can still be present given the higher than average proportion of people of colour who work in the services sector, but the same power dynamics (white middle class woman unreasonably exerting control over people with comparatively less power and privilege) are at play.

" Black does not 'raise her voice' beyond what is normal when making a point and having to be heard over someone interrupting you. For much of the video, Becker is actually speaking louder than Black."

This

Language evolves and changes all the time

many words in the English language are not English and often mean something different to the original word

slang is also often used in everyday language (and this isn't about speaking correctly we pick up terms all the time from adverts/tv programs and incorporate it in everyday language etc) and what might be used in London will be different in say Leeds

who decides what Karen means to different people the majority once again ?

Excuse me but I’m not the one who’s been doing comparing. You are. You’ve literally said that you will continue to harm women because they’re white and aren’t the most oppressed. THATS comparing. You then used a misogynistic slur towards me because you’ve made the assumption that I’m white. And you think you’re in the right?

I’ll say this to you - all your views are abstract and subjective. There are some people who think transwomen - that is a man (usually white) who identifies as a woman - is part of the most oppressed group in society. What would you say to it being acceptable to use racist slurs because well transwomen have it harder”?

Or what if I decided that actually white women have it worse than black women? And I used racist slurs against them because “white women have it harder”? See the problem here? I know you’re a narcissist as well as a racist, but not everyone does or have to agree with your viewpoint, so how does it work your isolated little bubble when others don’t agree with you?

racism exhibited in forms like falsely labelling women of colour as aggressive or attackers, is peak Karenism by the way.

When did I do that? Please, show me the posts. Or are you just a liar?

Being racist, lying continually about what other people have said, saying you will connote to harm an oppressed group because of some oppression hierarchy, is peak Cuntism by the way