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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Axel Rudakubana

554 replies

Dylanxoxo · 23/01/2025 20:13

I haven't seen anything in articles I have read about Axel Rudakubana today about a mental health assessment. His behaviour is so extreme, that it is difficult not to suspect he is suffering from an untreated mental health condition. Does anyone else think that mental illness may be at the root of his horrific crimes?

OP posts:
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6
ExtraOnions · 23/01/2025 22:04

soupfiend · 23/01/2025 22:03

'under the care of CAMHS'

Theres a sentence which is in breach of the Trades Description Act.

I know … 6 weeks “talking therapies” if you are lucky … then discharged with NFA (that’s if you get seen)

scorpiogirly · 23/01/2025 22:04

devildeepbluesea · 23/01/2025 20:30

Oh I don’t know. The people sharing his prison will probably get to him. Normally I’d condemn that, but not in this case.

Oh I hope so.

dnasurprise · 23/01/2025 22:04

InkHeart2024 · 23/01/2025 21:01

Sectioned for what purpose? You can't section someone indefinitely and personality disorders aren't treatable really

personality disorders are very treatable that is a very old-fashioned view. They are in fact one of the most treatable of all mental illnesses. I'm not sure psychopathy is treatable but it could be monitorable.

Haggisfish3 · 23/01/2025 22:05

I wonder about epigenetics and the possible link to extreme trauma in parental life prior to birth affecting children.

BeckyBloom · 23/01/2025 22:06

With so many weapons in the family home, how were his parents not aware of them?

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:07

Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 23/01/2025 20:20

I think that there has to be something fundamentally wrong with someone for them to commit such horrible crimes.

There is clearly something very wrong with him. He's not wired up right.

However. That doesn't mean the person should not face the consequences of their actions.

Not meeting the threshold for an insanity defence does not mean there is nothing wrong with a person.

Nobody who has a healthy mind commits atrocities.

(This should not be twisted to suggest to me that I think that everyone with mental health issues or personality disorders is dangerous)

This. There clearly is something mentally not right with him, and in that sense he's probably mentally ill, yes. But it shouldn't mean he doesn't face the consequences of his actions.

That said, as someone who works with troubled teens in a PRU, 99% of those kids on our books are involved or have been involved with CAMHS, and 80% of them have some kind of mental illness such as anxiety, OCD, depression etc. Some of those kids have committed crimes such as muggings, assault, theft etc.... their mental illnesses don't change their committing of those crimes (I know this is much different in terms of severity- I'm not meaning to offend anyone with the comparison). So whilst this is a really extreme version of this, it's the same isn't it; what's in question, I suppose, is if they- and Rudakubana- can be said to have been in full control of themselves when they committed their crimes. How we judge that is not for the likes of me or you to decide, there are criteria and professionals who do that job. And Rudakubana must have been deemed to have been in full possession of his wits and must therefore take full responsibility, otherwise his defence would have had him diagnosed as part of the pre-trial preparation.

On another note, I spend all day every day dealing with CAMHS and similar agencies and they are worth a wank. I'm not surprised to hear that Prevent are no better, either. As an example- not the worst, just the most recent- I was talking to CAMHS today about a 14 year old boy who's been with us since Christmas after being permanently excluded from mainstream after bringing a weapon into school. He's under a Child Protection order due to parental neglect and because of dad having a drug habit which has led to him recently being sentenced to a short spell in prison (dad was small-time dealing, as well as taking the drugs, using the family home to deal from). This boy was known to CAMHS previously when in primary school and was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder three years ago as a result of their assessments then. Following the PEx and since joining us he's been exhibiting destructive and violent behaviours in and out of school, but there's proof of these behaviours all through years 7, 8 and the term of year 9 he spend in mainstream secondary; none of this is new. CAMHS told me he would be waiting approx. 4-6 months for an initial assessment now that I've referred him to them, and then approx. 9-14 months to see a practitioner to diagnose/decide on treatment. So, about 18months, by which time he will either be in or nearly in year 11 and 16 years old... when his behaviours will have almost certainly progressed into further criminality and/or he will be harming himself one way or another (probably via a drug habit of some kind tbh considering what he's grown up around). As I say, not the worst case I've even dealt with since we came back from the Christmas holidays, but this afternoon so it's fresh in my mind. And the fact that he's been PExed for carrying a weapon (a miniature zombie knife, so something he acquired especially from somewhere rather than just pulled out of the knife block in the kitchen) has triggered nothing from any agencies apart from a "knife awareness course" from our school police officer that lasted an afternoon.

God forbid he graduates onto further weapons and actually does something with the next one, but if he were to everyone would be saying "what went wrong?" like it's remarkable, when the fact is that this neglect on the part of the state is happening day in, day out with so many of our young people. Okay, you have to be a psychopath to do what Rudakubana did, but at a population level there are a fair few psychopaths and if their behaviours are challenged and they aren't helped when they're school age, some of them will go on to commit terrible crimes like the Southport murders.

Keir Starmer is right to order an enquiry and making knives harder to buy for young people is an important step, but an urgent review of agencies such as CAMHS and Prevent and a cash injection for staff, resources and intervention is the most important part of this puzzle. And it can't wait, it needs to happen now.

soupfiend · 23/01/2025 22:09

BeckyBloom · 23/01/2025 22:06

With so many weapons in the family home, how were his parents not aware of them?

Was it knives from the drawer?

I havent read the full details

I would guess they were petrified of him. He was violent enough out of the home, imagine what he was like in the home

soupfiend · 23/01/2025 22:11

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:07

This. There clearly is something mentally not right with him, and in that sense he's probably mentally ill, yes. But it shouldn't mean he doesn't face the consequences of his actions.

That said, as someone who works with troubled teens in a PRU, 99% of those kids on our books are involved or have been involved with CAMHS, and 80% of them have some kind of mental illness such as anxiety, OCD, depression etc. Some of those kids have committed crimes such as muggings, assault, theft etc.... their mental illnesses don't change their committing of those crimes (I know this is much different in terms of severity- I'm not meaning to offend anyone with the comparison). So whilst this is a really extreme version of this, it's the same isn't it; what's in question, I suppose, is if they- and Rudakubana- can be said to have been in full control of themselves when they committed their crimes. How we judge that is not for the likes of me or you to decide, there are criteria and professionals who do that job. And Rudakubana must have been deemed to have been in full possession of his wits and must therefore take full responsibility, otherwise his defence would have had him diagnosed as part of the pre-trial preparation.

On another note, I spend all day every day dealing with CAMHS and similar agencies and they are worth a wank. I'm not surprised to hear that Prevent are no better, either. As an example- not the worst, just the most recent- I was talking to CAMHS today about a 14 year old boy who's been with us since Christmas after being permanently excluded from mainstream after bringing a weapon into school. He's under a Child Protection order due to parental neglect and because of dad having a drug habit which has led to him recently being sentenced to a short spell in prison (dad was small-time dealing, as well as taking the drugs, using the family home to deal from). This boy was known to CAMHS previously when in primary school and was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder three years ago as a result of their assessments then. Following the PEx and since joining us he's been exhibiting destructive and violent behaviours in and out of school, but there's proof of these behaviours all through years 7, 8 and the term of year 9 he spend in mainstream secondary; none of this is new. CAMHS told me he would be waiting approx. 4-6 months for an initial assessment now that I've referred him to them, and then approx. 9-14 months to see a practitioner to diagnose/decide on treatment. So, about 18months, by which time he will either be in or nearly in year 11 and 16 years old... when his behaviours will have almost certainly progressed into further criminality and/or he will be harming himself one way or another (probably via a drug habit of some kind tbh considering what he's grown up around). As I say, not the worst case I've even dealt with since we came back from the Christmas holidays, but this afternoon so it's fresh in my mind. And the fact that he's been PExed for carrying a weapon (a miniature zombie knife, so something he acquired especially from somewhere rather than just pulled out of the knife block in the kitchen) has triggered nothing from any agencies apart from a "knife awareness course" from our school police officer that lasted an afternoon.

God forbid he graduates onto further weapons and actually does something with the next one, but if he were to everyone would be saying "what went wrong?" like it's remarkable, when the fact is that this neglect on the part of the state is happening day in, day out with so many of our young people. Okay, you have to be a psychopath to do what Rudakubana did, but at a population level there are a fair few psychopaths and if their behaviours are challenged and they aren't helped when they're school age, some of them will go on to commit terrible crimes like the Southport murders.

Keir Starmer is right to order an enquiry and making knives harder to buy for young people is an important step, but an urgent review of agencies such as CAMHS and Prevent and a cash injection for staff, resources and intervention is the most important part of this puzzle. And it can't wait, it needs to happen now.

How many times have you been told by CAMHS that the child is traumatised and that this is a traumatised child?

Or that its just behavioural - ie theres nothing they can (want to) do.

BeckyBloom · 23/01/2025 22:12

Machetes, knives, crossbow, arrows...

Namerchangee · 23/01/2025 22:12

He’s an evil fuck who deserves to be dealt with in prison with extreme prejudice. Nothing could excuse or justify his actions. Those lovely little girls. Bastard.

anonymous98 · 23/01/2025 22:22

I'm just shocked that he was referred to Prevent on three separate occasions and nothing appeared to be done. What do Prevent actually do?

Lalgarh · 23/01/2025 22:29

They couldn't find a clear ideology he was following. But ten as mentioned, he seems determined to attack girls and women, so Misogyny. But that officially didn't seem like enough of a bespoke ideology. Hating women is deemed not unusual

PassingStranger · 23/01/2025 22:31

Dylanxoxo · 23/01/2025 20:13

I haven't seen anything in articles I have read about Axel Rudakubana today about a mental health assessment. His behaviour is so extreme, that it is difficult not to suspect he is suffering from an untreated mental health condition. Does anyone else think that mental illness may be at the root of his horrific crimes?

No, he's just a nasty individual.

UneFoisAuChalet · 23/01/2025 22:31

He’s unwell - that’s pretty fucking obvious - the hair, the mask and ultimately the violent crimes. BUT he’s been ‘fast tracked’ through the courts and the possible outcome had to be a guilty plea followed by 52 years. They couldn’t risk discussing his mental health issues or giving him a paltry 20 years considering what happened last summer. We will never ever hear about this guy again.

Scutterbug · 23/01/2025 22:32

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:07

This. There clearly is something mentally not right with him, and in that sense he's probably mentally ill, yes. But it shouldn't mean he doesn't face the consequences of his actions.

That said, as someone who works with troubled teens in a PRU, 99% of those kids on our books are involved or have been involved with CAMHS, and 80% of them have some kind of mental illness such as anxiety, OCD, depression etc. Some of those kids have committed crimes such as muggings, assault, theft etc.... their mental illnesses don't change their committing of those crimes (I know this is much different in terms of severity- I'm not meaning to offend anyone with the comparison). So whilst this is a really extreme version of this, it's the same isn't it; what's in question, I suppose, is if they- and Rudakubana- can be said to have been in full control of themselves when they committed their crimes. How we judge that is not for the likes of me or you to decide, there are criteria and professionals who do that job. And Rudakubana must have been deemed to have been in full possession of his wits and must therefore take full responsibility, otherwise his defence would have had him diagnosed as part of the pre-trial preparation.

On another note, I spend all day every day dealing with CAMHS and similar agencies and they are worth a wank. I'm not surprised to hear that Prevent are no better, either. As an example- not the worst, just the most recent- I was talking to CAMHS today about a 14 year old boy who's been with us since Christmas after being permanently excluded from mainstream after bringing a weapon into school. He's under a Child Protection order due to parental neglect and because of dad having a drug habit which has led to him recently being sentenced to a short spell in prison (dad was small-time dealing, as well as taking the drugs, using the family home to deal from). This boy was known to CAMHS previously when in primary school and was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder three years ago as a result of their assessments then. Following the PEx and since joining us he's been exhibiting destructive and violent behaviours in and out of school, but there's proof of these behaviours all through years 7, 8 and the term of year 9 he spend in mainstream secondary; none of this is new. CAMHS told me he would be waiting approx. 4-6 months for an initial assessment now that I've referred him to them, and then approx. 9-14 months to see a practitioner to diagnose/decide on treatment. So, about 18months, by which time he will either be in or nearly in year 11 and 16 years old... when his behaviours will have almost certainly progressed into further criminality and/or he will be harming himself one way or another (probably via a drug habit of some kind tbh considering what he's grown up around). As I say, not the worst case I've even dealt with since we came back from the Christmas holidays, but this afternoon so it's fresh in my mind. And the fact that he's been PExed for carrying a weapon (a miniature zombie knife, so something he acquired especially from somewhere rather than just pulled out of the knife block in the kitchen) has triggered nothing from any agencies apart from a "knife awareness course" from our school police officer that lasted an afternoon.

God forbid he graduates onto further weapons and actually does something with the next one, but if he were to everyone would be saying "what went wrong?" like it's remarkable, when the fact is that this neglect on the part of the state is happening day in, day out with so many of our young people. Okay, you have to be a psychopath to do what Rudakubana did, but at a population level there are a fair few psychopaths and if their behaviours are challenged and they aren't helped when they're school age, some of them will go on to commit terrible crimes like the Southport murders.

Keir Starmer is right to order an enquiry and making knives harder to buy for young people is an important step, but an urgent review of agencies such as CAMHS and Prevent and a cash injection for staff, resources and intervention is the most important part of this puzzle. And it can't wait, it needs to happen now.

As somebody who has worked in similar roles, I am really surprised that you think it is appropriate to share so much information about this young person.

PassingStranger · 23/01/2025 22:32

BeckyBloom · 23/01/2025 22:06

With so many weapons in the family home, how were his parents not aware of them?

They probably were and should be in the dock too.

BarkPench · 23/01/2025 22:39

MaggieMistletoe · 23/01/2025 21:43

I'm sorry if I expressed myself poorly, there was someone on the other thread about this individual who was describing their autistic son having no empathy and how they worry about him doing something like this and it's very frightening to me that there are families with children like this. I can see of course that there must have been a lot more wrong with him that just autism.

OK. Thank you for coming back to say that. Yes there was clearly more going on with this very disturbed man than just his autism. As the judge apparently said.
Haven’t seen the other thread so I can’t comment on that.

Conniebygaslight · 23/01/2025 22:41

While ever there is access to the internet and people open to influence this will happen. It’s bloody terrifying

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:41

@soupfiend this particular child hasn't been under any agency for trauma, but as his dad is in prison for drug-related crimes and was injecting class As in the family home, I'd be surprised if he hasn't got some trauma now that wasn't there last time he saw CAMHS. There's also been an escalation of DV in the family home as dad's drug taking progressed.

But even kids with severe trauma (I'm talking kids who've been sexually abused by family members) are having to similar time frames for help from CAMHS, and when they do get it it's "behaviour modification therapy" from "behaviour therapists" rather than even talking therapy from a psychiatrist, as it would have been 20yrs ago when I was first teaching. If you kick up a fuss and demand these kids be seen faster you might get them seen a bit sooner, but often only if their behaviour has escalated (e.g. they're threatening suicide or self-harming). Also, there are now only two psychiatrists in our whole boroughs CAMHS system and one of those is purely for prescribing appointments. There used to be a third one, but he left the year before last and wasn't replaced.

soupfiend · 23/01/2025 22:44

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:41

@soupfiend this particular child hasn't been under any agency for trauma, but as his dad is in prison for drug-related crimes and was injecting class As in the family home, I'd be surprised if he hasn't got some trauma now that wasn't there last time he saw CAMHS. There's also been an escalation of DV in the family home as dad's drug taking progressed.

But even kids with severe trauma (I'm talking kids who've been sexually abused by family members) are having to similar time frames for help from CAMHS, and when they do get it it's "behaviour modification therapy" from "behaviour therapists" rather than even talking therapy from a psychiatrist, as it would have been 20yrs ago when I was first teaching. If you kick up a fuss and demand these kids be seen faster you might get them seen a bit sooner, but often only if their behaviour has escalated (e.g. they're threatening suicide or self-harming). Also, there are now only two psychiatrists in our whole boroughs CAMHS system and one of those is purely for prescribing appointments. There used to be a third one, but he left the year before last and wasn't replaced.

I was being sarcastic. We normally get told that the behaviour is all trauma and therefore not a MH issue and therefore nothing to be done, just supporting the parents (without supporting the parents), or its behavioural so ergo choice based and a way of 'self soothing'.

genesis92 · 23/01/2025 22:46

Why do you give a fuck? I hope he rots in hell

LambriniBobInIsleworthISeesYa · 23/01/2025 22:53

@Scutterbug sorry, did I type this young persons name or reveal where I work or write some other identifying detail?! Oh no, that's right, I didn't.

Also, as someone who's worked in similar positions, I imagine that you might have realised that I might have changed a few details around to blur the overall picture, there... so thanks for shining a light on that.

Christ. I mean, if that was your takeaway from my post, saints preserve us. Also, if people doing jobs like mine (and yours!) don't talk about how bad things are out there, how the fuck are they ever going to change?! And FWIW, I'm in regular touch with our schools local MP about this, speak in local forums- both online and IRL- and have contacts I speak to at the LEA and in the office of the schools minister. I regularly share anonymised stories like this in all of those places because my Headteacher is of the same opinion as me and encourages it: we need to be making noise about how badly our kids are being let down! This is a national scandal! And cases like this one in Southport only serve to underline it. 14 years of underfunding and austerity have fucked the way these agencies act and the impact they're able to have. They're not fit for purpose.

BeckyBloom · 23/01/2025 22:53

BeckyBloom
With so many weapons in the family home, how were his parents not aware of them?

They probably were and should be in the dock too

I agree.

NuffSaidSam · 23/01/2025 22:54

genesis92 · 23/01/2025 22:46

Why do you give a fuck? I hope he rots in hell

Because to prevent it happening again we need to understand, as best we can, what caused it this time.

He can burn in hell. That won't stop the next attack. Or the next one. Or the next one.

It shortsighted to think what made him do this doesn't matter.

TiredCatLady · 23/01/2025 22:59

@Meecrowahvey first post nails it.

He will have had every assessment under the sun by now courtesy of his stay at Ashworth. Whether he chose to engage with assessment or not (and the staff are used to “not”), he will have been under constant observation day and night and it written up.
If the defence (a highly competent man and team) didn’t say a thing about that, even to try to mitigate sentencing, then what does that tell you?