Am I being unreasonable to think parents who use “gentle parenting” are just making rods for their own backs?

[jasonandhannahbush]

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, but I just can’t keep quiet anymore. It seems like every parent I know is hopping on the “gentle parenting” bandwagon these days, and frankly, I don’t get it.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we should be shouting at our kids 24/7 or smacking them (before anyone tries to accuse me of that), but is it really so bad to say “no” every now and then? Or to expect kids to, you know, actually listen without needing a full 15 minute discussion about their feelings?

I’ve got a neighbour whose child throws tantrums every single day. Instead of saying, “Enough, let’s move on,” she sits there trying to “validate their emotions” while the kid screams their head off. I’m sorry, but life doesn’t work like that. Sometimes you’re told to stop, and you just stop. What’s next? Negotiating bedtime? Asking if it’s OK to give them broccoli?

And let’s not even get started on “natural consequences.” If my child tried to climb on the dining table, the “natural consequence” wouldn’t be letting them fall off it would be me telling them to get down before they break their neck!

AIBU to think this whole trend is just a bit soft? Kids need structure, rules, and discipline, not endless “discussions” about why hitting their sibling is wrong. I don’t want to raise kids who think the world will coddle them every time they throw a wobbly.

Anyway, feel free to tell me I’m horrible, but I can’t be the only one who feels like this, right?

(Posting here because if I said this in real life, I’d probably get lynched at the school gates!)

Have you actually read proper literature about it? It doesn’t involve not saying no and the natural consequences thing doesn’t count if they are in danger. There is an element of childism in society - not allowing them to have age appropriate reactions etc.

Gentle parenting and permissive parenting get mixed up.

Gentle parenting is about understanding brain development and reasons why babies/toddlers/children behave in certain ways. They absolutely need boundaries and of course they are told no.

Eg they learn by repetition, pouring their cup of water over again and again is them learning cause & effect, not to purposefully piss you off. You simply take away the cup and tell them why. Screaming and shouting just scares them and they don't really learn to understand what they've done wrong. Then you'd let them learn that 'skill' another way, such as in the bath or outside with some toys/plastic containers.

another example- toddler in fullscale tantrum/meltdown. The 'primitive' part of their brain has taken over, they literally can't process what you're saying or understand you at that time. Shouting/threats/punishments at that exact point is useless and doesn't help them learn to regulate themselves, the tantrum is likely to go on for longer. Best thing to do is try to stay calm and comfort them/wait it out.

Obviously, if they are about to push another child off a climbing frame, then you probably are going to lose your shit and have a go at them or yank them off the climbing frame- you don't really have time to be 'gentle'.

Permissive parenting is borderline neglectful parenting- it's not preparing your children for the real world.

Again, I feel that a lot of these parenting trends are great if you only have one child and plenty of time. If you've got a large family and they are all quite young, with various needs and differing behaviours and characters, no one method of parenting is going to suit all of them, and you need to do whatever works to get everyone dressed, fed and off to wherever they are supposed to be.

This is literally the best and most concise explanation I've seen for a while!

There is a definite no true Scotsman thing with gentle parenting. For my part I don’t think it is effective at all and I was a little bit disappointed to see that the BBC had quoted Sarah Ockwell Smith as an ‘expert’ in one of their posts on the tiny happy people instagram page the other day. I think she causes more harm than good. But … the battle of ‘well clearly that’s not gentle parenting’!’ will rage on.

This.

And I don't think it's in the child's best interests, either now (because it's attributing a level of cognitive reasoning that developmentally they're just not at, and because children need age-appropriate structure and boundaries) or when they grow up and don't have the resilience to deal with life's slings and arrows.

Reasonable adjustments just because a child doesn't feel like wearing the uniform? I think not.

Regardless of if it's to protect the child or protect the table, not using room appropriately = not using room. The same as
not using a toy appropriately (eg throwing) = not having toy.
Not sitting safly in car seat = not driving to soft play
not behaving safely on outings = going home / not going out
Not been kind on playdate = no playdates for a while

In my view those are natural consequences, as they are a direct response to the behaviour and what needs to happen to prevent the behaviour if the child is unable to prevent it themselves. To me this is very different arbitrary sanctions like not TV or time out or whatever, that has no link to the behaviour.

As for the veg, even with 5 kids I still don't understand why everyone would have to eat everything I had cooked. If I made peas, Carrots & broccoli, and the kid that didn't like broccoli just had a bigger portion of Carrots and peas, it really wouldn't bother me. Another one might love broccoli and have more of it, or if no one liked it I'd just change the proportion of broccoli that I made. I would never be cooking just broccoli and no other vegetables anyway.

Gentle parenting requires firm boundaries. I tell my 4yo no all the time. I’m just not a dismissive asshole in the way I do it.

I’m regularly complimented on how pleasant he is, so it works brilliantly for us.

Yet again, yet another person doesn't seem to understand 'gentle parenting'... I'm including the nextdoor neighbour in that.

Gentle parenting isn't never saying no. That's crap parenting.

Natural consequences are nothing to do with (REAL) gentle parenting.... and are, really another word for 'punishment', which we know doesn't work on adults or children. Everyone's idea of a 'natural consequence' will be different anyway, so little point in it being seen as a universal law.

I feel like people who REALLY practice ACTUAL Gentle parenting get such a bad name from these permissive/not parenting parents! Really grinds my gears, can you tell!?

Gentle parenting these days seems to either be too passive or too making the child think they will always be the centre of every situation. Neither are setting them up for real life.

"Gentle parenting" produces very individualistic children who think their own feelings are always reasonable & valid & are not very good at tolerating a small amount of disappointment, sadness etc for the collective good. They tend to have zero sense of proportion because they've been taught that its valid to be devastated that their peas are green. They lack obedience and expect an explanation for everything, which is not always reasonable, and have an overwhelming sense of entitlement and their own individual importance. Its not good for society which requires that we focus on collective good & often requires us to make sacrifices for those more in need.

@Sprogonthetyne
Okay, let's take the natural consequences a step further:

not using room appropriately = not using room
Jumping on their bed = not having a bed?
Splashing water all over the bathroom = not having a shower or bath?
Misbehaving in a doctor's surgery = no more GP appointments?

not using a toy appropriately (eg throwing) = not having toy
Throwing a fork = eat your dinner with your hands?
Stuffing toilet paper everywhere = no more toilet paper?
Throwing a tantrum during toothbrushing = no more toothbrushing?

Not sitting safly in car seat = not driving to soft play
Not sitting safely in car seat for school = no more school?
Not sitting safely in the car seat for the dentist appointment = no more dentist?
Not being safe in the shopping trolley = no more food shop?

not behaving safely on outings = going home / not going out
So potentially no trips to any of the boring things we have to drag kids to: childcare/ school, doctors, food/ clothes shop? And stay at home with more and more unburnt energy and the potential to wreck the house even more, because they haven't been outside?

Not been kind on playdate = no playdates for a while
Not been kind at childcare = no more childcare?
Not been kind to the teacher = no more school?
Misbehaved at medical appointment = no more of those?

You see what I'm getting at here. Kids usually don't misbehave if it's something that THEY want to do. Why would they? It's the mundane, boring, necessary stuff that lots of people get into conflict with their children over and natural consequences there Do. Not. Work, because they are either dangerous or would impact the parent in a negative way.

I've had to fight mine over a lot of things, because they have got their stubbornness from me. You may be able to get away with the natural consequence of refusing to get dressed while they're at nursery and just take them in their pyjamas and let them be cold for refusing to put their coats on, because nursery can dress them. You can't do that when they need to be in school uniform.

One of mine refused to open their mouth at the dentist's for necessary treatment the other day. The natural consequence would be to allow them to let their teeth rot. That doesn't sit right with me, so punishment taking away their screen time followed (and yes, that was followed by a conversation about their behaviour and a pinky promise to actually open their mouth next time). I remember refusing to be put on a drip at hospital at that age and having 5 medical staff pin me down in bed while I screamed and kicked at them. You cannot negotiate your way out of these, nor can you let them just run their course.

Jasnah good post

I agree that those are rubbish consequences but nine would be different.

refusing to get out the car for the dentist would result in no more sweet treats because I can’t trust him to care for his teeth properly. And yes, I’d still make him get out the car.

refusing to get ready for school and making us late would result in having to do some catch up work after school which would eat into screen time.

i definitely agree that some things are non-negotiable especially when it comes to education and health.

@jasonandhannahbush Until I clocked your username just now I was wondering if you lived next door but one to me, on the otherwise of the screaming banshee that lives next door!! A full 1½hr of non stop screaming is the record so far. Most days we get something, just things being thrown or doors slammed but on the days it goes beyond 20 minutes is the days I realise I need to save every penny in the hope of buying a detached.

And how are you going to police that?

I can refuse all sweet treats at home for the next 6 months, but I know for a fact that they get sweet treats in school, from relatives and at wraparound care. Not exactly effective and 6 months until the next dentist visit (because it's the NHS and they don't give extra (free) appointments to kids who refuse to open their mouths) is a disproportionately long time. And where does it stop? Fruit ruins their teeth, too. I also have a much older teenager, who walks themselves to school. What, pray, do I do if they refuse to open their mouth at the dentist's? Again, this assumes that young children stay young - they don't and need to get into decent habits before they reach an age where you have far less direct control over them.

If mine refuse to get ready for school I'm late for work. The consequences for that are far more severe for me than they are for my kids (because detentions are not a thing at primary school and mine would rather be indoors with a book during play time in this weather anyway). I've never had much of an issue with that because I build in plenty of time, but I know other parents do and are in the same boat with regards to work.

Bar the odd day (see the dentist appointment) mine are thankfully very well behaved, but it has been and still is hard work. I may take a far more traditional route - less explanation, more expectation that requests are followed first time - but in the long run it works out better that way.

I ended up getting really upset at all the idiots telling me I can "just do the school run in DCs pyjamas" like it was some hilarious escapade.

No thought to how I'd have to haul a bag of uniform with DC in both hands and a rucksack. No suggestions as to how I'd manage to get them dressed in the street and stop the toddler wandering off with just two hands. No thought as to how fucking unpleasant it would be for me to have to kneel on a wet pavement getting them dressed in the freezing cold.

Don't give this "advice" to a stressed parent, it won't make them laugh or help them.

How is "gentle parenting" supposed to be better for the child than traditional parenting?

Well, they do make reasonable adjustments... Loads of kids at primary school aren't in correct uniform for various reasons.

And then they get to secondary school and everyone is up in arms that they end up in detention or isolation. Habits are built while children are young, and compliance with uniform regulations is one of those. Reasonable adjustments for uniforms are only done for genuine SEND reasons at secondary level.

That's hilarious 😂 did you say "thank you for your service"?

It doesn’t assume that young children stay young. It assumes that young children will learn from their mistakes. Do it effectively early and the need for it lessens.

Interesting that my child who has been actually gentle parented (NOT permissive parented), despite having autism and ADHD and FASD, who is terrified of the dentist, has managed to get through his appointments because he knows that refusing to open his mouth isn’t an option. I’ve explained to him beforehand how important it is and developed a plan with him of what we can do if he’s scared, because I treat him with a bit of respect rather than just rushing to ban screens when he does anything wrong.

There are always consequences and I ALWAYS stick to them. He isn’t allowed YouTube unsupervised because he once, two years ago, watched something he shouldn’t have (some huggy wuggy crap). Nor is he allowed screens in his room because he has shown that he doesn’t listen to his body and go to the toilet when left unsupervised with screens.

A teen who walks to school - if they’re late for school then they lose that amount of their ‘free time’. If they buy sweets when you’ve told them not to then they take packed lunches rather than money.

A parents job is to parent and teach them right from wrong, not just put in place arbitrary punishments that have no relation to real life. They are going to be adults one day and when they know they can do what they want without being grounded or having their screens removed, they might not make the best choices. But they will if they understand what will actually happen if they don’t.

A teen who walks to school - if they’re late for school then they lose that amount of their ‘free time’. If they buy sweets when you’ve told them not to then they take packed lunches rather than money.

Tell me you don't have a 15/16 year old yet without telling me you don't have a 15/16 year old yet.

You're also giving children too little credit. Children start to know right from wrong between the ages of 2 and 3. Doesn't mean they always stick to that.
You may have been lucky with the personalities of yours; mine have all been stubborn-ass little so-and-sos. I don't blame them; they have it from their mother. All the conversations have been had - before and after any events that needed intervention. And as I said, all of mine are turning out well-rounded, with the odd blip. Consistency is the key.

But the punishment doesn't always need to fit the crime; sometimes you need to do what is effective and they will remember. The punishment for breaking the law often doesn't fit the crime. How is losing money a consequence related to speeding? Or sweeping streets for a few months a punishment for a broken nose? Those punishments are meant to deter people from committing crimes in the first place, or from reoffending if they have been convicted. A bit like punishments in parenting.

Ah yeah, been super lucky with my son’s personality and choices he’s made. LOVED when he was suspended from school twenty three times in a six month period in reception year. My fave was when they had to evacuate the kids out the classroom because he’d got hold of a plank of wood and was trying to smash the room up. Such fun!

I’ve raised a teenager too. I’ve treated them with respect from a young age and they’ve always shown me respect too.

You parent the way you see fit, and by your own account your kids are turning out fantastic, and that’s great. But all I’m trying to say is that your way isn’t the only way. Gentle parenting (when it’s actually gentle parenting and not permissive parenting) can raise pretty fantastic kids too!