To ask what your neurotypical view is… What is normal?!

[2024namechanger]

My children are currently being assessed and whilst we don’t have a diagnosis, my dd has a lot of medical involvement and we have been told to prepare for ASD diagnosis (absolutely welcome this for her). She is mid teens and I had no idea when she was a child. After going through the child developmental assessments I realise that this is large part due to:

Me really struggling with social development as a child, blaming my mother, and ensuring that I taught my daughter how to behave (read:mask)
Me assuming I am totally normal and telling my daughter x y z was normal - I’m like that too!
Me having absolutely no clue as to what life is like for the NT.

I have no diagnoses. I am certain I have ADHD and will probably get assessed as actually I think it’s making me unwell - I can’t switch my brain off. I have ND traits and would be surprised if this added up to an ASD diagnosis. But I am also really struggling to work this out as I am not sure what normal is. If I am autistic it doesn’t have a big impact on me, and I have learnt multiple coping mechanisms, and avoidance! but would bring comfort.

So, if you are NT, how do you view the world?

[I hate it when people ask and don’t share their stuff. There was a lot in my childhood - I was very weird but I also had trauma at a young age and was lied to about family issues so whilst most things didn’t make any sense, there was a reason for that. I am big on self reflecting and have tried to change and adapt hugely as the years go on. I’m in my 40s now and have lots of kind and lovely friends.

SO Things I struggle with (eliminating ADHD stuff)
Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Making a phone call (I have to plan it, it’s stressful. If unexpected I can’t do it. I can answer a call much better - when it’s being led by me it’s harder). I can make calls as part of my job with little issue. Understanding social niceties/manners/how to begin convos, lots around this. I jump in the middle and forget to say hi. I try and be super polite and am referred to as blunt. Have friends who love me but am ‘marmite.’ Have a low tolerance for liars. Have rigidity but have learnt to understand that rules aren’t everything, have become a leader at work where you have to sometimes act outside of the rules. This took me years to learn, but I did it. Understanding text messages. I spend a lot of time ensuring I answer every element as I have got in trouble for being self involved and not responding to a key issue. Moods. I can really lose my temper. I try not to, but it actually makes me feel quite unwell as I get so angry. Often fantasise about living alone as it would better than the highs and lows I have. Understanding about other people. I tend to move people out of the way. I honestly would never do this thinkingly, and would be horrified if someone did it to me, but I have to admit I do this all the time. If I need to get across the kitchen I’ll just move someone. It makes sense in the moment. In retrospect that seems insane as I KNOW I should just say excuse me. But I don’t. I think I am getting worse around this.

However flipside I am very confident and can present to a room of strangers. I ran a children’s choir quite happily, singing in front of little kids. Hated the thought of it the night before, in the morning - huge stress. Loved it when I was actually doing it. Performing was horrifying but I just looked at them. Couldn’t fathom how they had the guts to face the audience! Can’t imagine I showed this. At work I am applauded as an excellent communicator. I am articulate. I can immediately pick apart a problem, find the fault and correct. I am often praised for ‘getting it’ and great understanding when working with other agencies. I loathe confrontation in my personal life but have no issue at work and will call someone out if needs be. I have to sit on emails for 24 hours to ensure I’m appropriate however, and have been advised to keep my mouth shut in the moment. Which I can do!!!

I thought my struggles were everyone’s but I read something recently which made me question this. I know at work that no one ever wants to call for the takeaway so I assume they don’t want to for the same reason? But maybe it’s different? What’s it like for you???

PS I’m not asking for thoughts on my ND or otherwise - you can’t diagnose over the internet and I have left everything out that I ‘know’ is a trait. I’m more interested in knowing if everyone feels like me. I felt very different to others as a kid but a lot more normal nowadays. So just curious I guess.

This is a good point but the rates of people who are being diagnosed with neurodivergent conditions are high enough that they are essentially a large part of normal society. People act as if they are two discrete categories (ND and NT), with "ND" people having more in common with each other than with "NT" people.

This isn't the case for the very broad definition of ND that's used today. Strategies to help an "ND" person manage social anxiety would likely be helpful to an "NT" person as well.

The reason I push back on this is that o think in many cases we're providing individualised solutions to social problems. The most obvious one is schools: we have a concept that most NT kids are 100% happy in a 30-person classroom with no issues, but a ND kid needs an EHCP and dedicated TA. It's entirely rational on behalf of parents to pursue ND diagnosis because a 30-person classroom is suboptimal for learning. But it's a problem with the classroom, not the kid. We shouldn't be arguing for more EHCPs and TAs but for better classrooms.

(Obviously not talking about severe cases, but I'd argue based on my own experience that even a lot of quite boisterous boys can do well in a smaller setting with a lot more running around and an active male teacher, for example.)

IMO terms like 'autistic' are typically used as shorthand for a person who struggles socially, has fixed interests etc.
As a pp said, a formal diagnosis is about a thorough appraisal of whether your difficulties are sufficient to interfere with your daily life. The specific diagnosis will vary according to to an individual's particular cluster of difficulties. Hence one diagnosis is often followed by a series of of further, different diagnoses. The diagnosis may vary according to the individual's social setting or the orientation/ qualifications of the assessor.
Diagnoses are a means of getting help for those in particular need of help, not special, powerful adjectives.
That's how I see it, although I'm not a psychologist etcetera. I'm quite happy for others to disagree & hope there's nothing offensive in my post!

@NDSceptic You are conflating different things. There are norms for IQ, which is how learning disabilities are diagnosed. There are separate researched and validated norms for ADHD and autism e.g social functioning and communication.

This is the issue with the term autism being misused as shorthand for people who struggle socially. Plenty of people struggle socially and aren’t autistic, and people can be autistic and social.

The assessment process is thorough and not based on the individuals social setting; it is a multi-perspective historical assessment that also evaluates present day functioning. It is not depending on the ‘orientation’ of the assessor, as neuropsychological testing does not require an orientation in the same way therapy does for instance.

I am a psychologist who is trained to assess ND, however I do think the term ND is bounded around too much - here on MN, on social media, etc. Saying that, there is some really unhelpful disinformation on this thread about neurodivergence and assessment of such.

I think this is spot on. Many councils are overwhelmed with the responsibility of providing EHCPs and individualised help to a growing number of students who can’t cope in mainstream school settings - and we know that schools have been cut back to the bone, and classrooms are now so suboptimal as for it to be a national disgrace. More emphasis on structural changes would be useful, imo, which would include specialised support for all students who are struggling to learn, but would probably reduce the cost burden of delivering individual support to so many.

I am not conflating different things. IQ is one aspect of neurodiversity, Communication, social functioning, working memory, processing speed, organisation, flexibility, impulsiveness, attention, risk taking etc are others. They all represents different aspects of brain functioning. Autism is just a name given to one collection of ‘norms’ but you just need to look at the level of so-called comorbidities in those diagnosed as autism to see that that autism is an incomplete diagnosis. They aren’t comorbidities - they are what make up the whole of a discription for that person of their single ‘condition’. They do not have ADHD plus Autism plus dyslexia; they have themselves and that could be the same as others or not.

Diagnostic manuals are political books, not set science.

@NDSceptic I agree about diagnostic labels, however there isn’t a current way of understanding these difficulties without a diagnostic framework. A diagnosis can be a gateway into receiving additional support for children with SEN, so many systemic factors would need to change before the entire diagnostic system was binned.

Again - I am referring to neurodivergence, not neurodiversity. A child absolutely can have ADHD, autism and dyslexia - many do. Equally a person can just have autism, or whatever word you want to use for those particular collection of functioning difficulties. What do you propose is an alternative for children with SEN, in terms of identifying and supporting their needs?

I don't think we're disagreeing with each other.
I was thinking of how different types of professions work within different modalities.
Hence an Occupational Psychologist, an Educational psychologist, a psychoanalyst, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a teacher assessor might all work within the same individual but within different settings for different purposes. Hence they might come up with different diagnoses, all of which might be equally valid.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the same individual can be more or less autistic according to the situation. I understand the point of assessment is to create a profile that will be stable across time ( allowing for a margin of error).
At the same time, these descriptions seem to come in and out of fashion. I don't hear about dyspraxia so much lately and dyslexia seems to on the wane, while ADHD has a high profile socially but seems lately to being rivalled by ASD.

@Plastictrees A diagnosis can be a gateway into receiving additional support for children with SEN, so many systemic factors would need to change before the entire diagnostic system was binned.

This is an argument to change the systemic factors, not to defend the diagnostic system.

I think you have a nuanced understanding of what you're doing but the vast majority of Mumsnet posts on this topic are "I have an Official Diagnosis therefore I am Officially ND".

Exactly, well said.

It may be the current system but it is not a good one. It creates silos. People are not considered holistically. Even the diagnostic system has ‘autism pathways’ and ‘adhd pathways’ and ‘learning disability nurses’ and ‘brain injury nurse’ and often people who diagnose one cannot diagnose another. Once one diagnosis box has been ticked curiosity is satiated. There is diagnostic overshadowing. Or a child or adult doesn’t tick, say the ‘autism’ box then they are sent away.

Yes there needs to be systemic change but that needs to start by considering neurodiversity completely in the round not as little boxes.

What would you suggest as an alternative to diagnosis, particularly for children with SEN?

I think it is a sensitive topic in general, currently. There was an interesting thread a month or so ago with a few posters questioning the value of diagnosing children with ND, and the potential harms of this. This did not go down well! I can understand both positions, the issue with challenging diagnosis is that it can often be seemed as invalidating to those with the diagnosis.

It is very much the same with mental health ‘disorders’ too, but there are some alternative conceptualisations to diagnosis which are becoming more mainstream. Whereas I don’t think this is the case with neurodivergence.

I'm starting to think that there can actually be too much knowledge about things now.

That would need to be based on research, you shouldn’t predetermine the outcome or do something just to placate certain groups. It may be there are different/more groupings of traits/symptoms or maybe it will be a profile of needs instead. Or a mix of the two.