To ask what your neurotypical view is… What is normal?!

[2024namechanger]

My children are currently being assessed and whilst we don’t have a diagnosis, my dd has a lot of medical involvement and we have been told to prepare for ASD diagnosis (absolutely welcome this for her). She is mid teens and I had no idea when she was a child. After going through the child developmental assessments I realise that this is large part due to:

Me really struggling with social development as a child, blaming my mother, and ensuring that I taught my daughter how to behave (read:mask)
Me assuming I am totally normal and telling my daughter x y z was normal - I’m like that too!
Me having absolutely no clue as to what life is like for the NT.

I have no diagnoses. I am certain I have ADHD and will probably get assessed as actually I think it’s making me unwell - I can’t switch my brain off. I have ND traits and would be surprised if this added up to an ASD diagnosis. But I am also really struggling to work this out as I am not sure what normal is. If I am autistic it doesn’t have a big impact on me, and I have learnt multiple coping mechanisms, and avoidance! but would bring comfort.

So, if you are NT, how do you view the world?

[I hate it when people ask and don’t share their stuff. There was a lot in my childhood - I was very weird but I also had trauma at a young age and was lied to about family issues so whilst most things didn’t make any sense, there was a reason for that. I am big on self reflecting and have tried to change and adapt hugely as the years go on. I’m in my 40s now and have lots of kind and lovely friends.

SO Things I struggle with (eliminating ADHD stuff)
Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Making a phone call (I have to plan it, it’s stressful. If unexpected I can’t do it. I can answer a call much better - when it’s being led by me it’s harder). I can make calls as part of my job with little issue. Understanding social niceties/manners/how to begin convos, lots around this. I jump in the middle and forget to say hi. I try and be super polite and am referred to as blunt. Have friends who love me but am ‘marmite.’ Have a low tolerance for liars. Have rigidity but have learnt to understand that rules aren’t everything, have become a leader at work where you have to sometimes act outside of the rules. This took me years to learn, but I did it. Understanding text messages. I spend a lot of time ensuring I answer every element as I have got in trouble for being self involved and not responding to a key issue. Moods. I can really lose my temper. I try not to, but it actually makes me feel quite unwell as I get so angry. Often fantasise about living alone as it would better than the highs and lows I have. Understanding about other people. I tend to move people out of the way. I honestly would never do this thinkingly, and would be horrified if someone did it to me, but I have to admit I do this all the time. If I need to get across the kitchen I’ll just move someone. It makes sense in the moment. In retrospect that seems insane as I KNOW I should just say excuse me. But I don’t. I think I am getting worse around this.

However flipside I am very confident and can present to a room of strangers. I ran a children’s choir quite happily, singing in front of little kids. Hated the thought of it the night before, in the morning - huge stress. Loved it when I was actually doing it. Performing was horrifying but I just looked at them. Couldn’t fathom how they had the guts to face the audience! Can’t imagine I showed this. At work I am applauded as an excellent communicator. I am articulate. I can immediately pick apart a problem, find the fault and correct. I am often praised for ‘getting it’ and great understanding when working with other agencies. I loathe confrontation in my personal life but have no issue at work and will call someone out if needs be. I have to sit on emails for 24 hours to ensure I’m appropriate however, and have been advised to keep my mouth shut in the moment. Which I can do!!!

I thought my struggles were everyone’s but I read something recently which made me question this. I know at work that no one ever wants to call for the takeaway so I assume they don’t want to for the same reason? But maybe it’s different? What’s it like for you???

PS I’m not asking for thoughts on my ND or otherwise - you can’t diagnose over the internet and I have left everything out that I ‘know’ is a trait. I’m more interested in knowing if everyone feels like me. I felt very different to others as a kid but a lot more normal nowadays. So just curious I guess.

I think there is a lot of conflating of social anxiety / poor social skills / introversion with ASD.

OP what were you like as a kid? I don't have a diagnosis but I think if I were a child now I might have. I was painfully shy and would play on my own, I taught myself to read at 2, I would insist on wearing the same old jumper every day, I refused to get my haircut so it was a long ratty ponytail to my bum, disliked by teachers for being "too serious", would come home from school and just burst into tears for seemingly no reason.

I'll probably get flamed for this but as an adult I'm always amazed when people say they're ASD and then talk about their kids. I can't imagine how on earth I'd cope with having children. The noise, the smells, the mess, things getting thrown up in the air constantly, being touched all the time. It would be my own personal hell.

lots of members who feel sure there is "something" ND, often have family members diagnosed but either aren't interested in looking into specifics or are on long waiting lists but nothing yet confirmed or they don't know, they just found themselves there. Some of them I tend to think of as ND spaces but they actually started out as parenting support (often gentle parenting kind of things) or some niche hobby or interest, it's just that with the more recent talk about neurodiversity online, you get those clusters within those spaces too, some broke off a sort of "mini-ND branch" and a couple of them just the ND type discussions have been so prominent that it's kind of overtaken the original focus of the group.

🙄

It wasn't until I was medicated for my ADHD that autistic traits started to show up more - I got better at having a routine and realised how much I need a routine. There is crossover with anxiety and internal OCD symptoms though.

Also, the points you listed OP - many of these are ADHD traits too, like mood swings, rigidity, planning and initiating tasks.

And these are the groups who think it is ok to speak on behalf of families with profoundly disabled children or tell them there is no such think as low functioning ASD because they have days when they struggle to do anything too.

ASD affects people in different ways. I’m diagnosed ASD, I have 2 DC.

because it's nice to know you are a normal zebra and not a defective horse.

I agree with this.
Have you considered that many of your difficulties may be down to childhood trauma?

I don’t think you meant to OP, but your thread has been the perfect invitation for those with anti ND views to put them out there, spout shit about labels and how everyone wants one etc. I notice quite a few of the same names coming up as in previous threads. They’re often deleted. Such hateful, clueless people.

You’re being binary about the most complex and unknown thing, the human brain. These are ridiculous questions.

None of it matters in terms of “normal” or not. You are what you are. I think you’re asking if everyone struggles as much and/or in the same ways as you do. Whether they do or don’t can be a function of many different things, not just neurodivergence.

I do wonder how much of this is trying to understand how others perceive things like colours or smells as someone who's colourblind or suffers anosmia. Without a diagnosis you go through life learning that your normal is not others normal to varying degrees.

I'm ND af, I've no true idea in which direction & see no point in getting a diagnosis. For example, though, I am exceptionally good in social situations & at public speaking cos I can think off the cuff. I did a fair amount of public speaking in a very specific health related field & I never prepared a damn thing, not a word written down, I just winged it every time. Could be a brag, no? Well no, cos it was a mask & I don't feel remotely like it was me. After the events I had to drink, a lot, to cope lol. But I look ppl in the eye, I stand up straight & I can control my breathing like goddamn ninja. But it drains me of everything single thing I have.

Conversely - I cannot, for the life of me, pin down my twin nieces & which name belongs to which. I see them all the time, for ten years! Everyone else in the family can do it, but not me. I'm also in heavy debt to the tax man just through fines (not unpaid tax) cos I just cannot bring myself to deal with it. The moment I look at the forms it's like the words are another language & I can't take them in. But I can read & understand complex research despite never going to uni. So my need for support goes completely unnoticed cos I look so capable & I'm really really not.

But I'm also hyper-empathetic which is awful & stops me from enjoying a lot of things that others can in terms of film & TV. I can read ppl really easily & find highly emotional situations overwhelming, like I feel ALL of it whether it's a concert, sports game or funeral. I've also a crazy sense of smell - recent A&E trip I had to go & stand outside cos the smell of stressed other ppl made me feel truly sick (I wasn't there for me).

I mean, there's a bunch of other stuff, obvious things, but the only way to know your label is to get tested. Would it help me? No clue cos the chances of me organising that are slim to none & I manage just fine :)

Correct. I asked this:

‘I’m not asking for thoughts on my ND or otherwise - you can’t diagnose over the internet and I have left everything out that I ‘know’ is a trait. I’m more interested in knowing if everyone feels like me. I felt very different to others as a kid but a lot more normal nowadays. So just curious I guess’

It has created a bunfight seemingly from a lot of people who are angry about ND. And others who are well meaningly trying to diagnose me or not. I don’t need a diagnosis over the internet when I have specifically asked if certain things are usual for NT. If I wanted an armchair dx I might have shared the traits I have understood are ND.

I don’t need a diagnosis to be ‘special’ - I am an unusual person and don’t need any further distinctions! I also didn’t suggest for a second that life is ‘easy’ for NT - there are challenges for both. Some of my ND traits (not shared on here) definitely help me. And realising I probably have ADHD helped hugely as I started asking organised/punctual people how they did it. I was then able to model some of their behaviours.

Thank you to all those who have replied with good intentions. Your posts have been really helpful.

Yes, in a nutshell, NT people also struggle with a lot of the things you struggle with.

There also isn't one set profile for someone with mild or severe ASD, moderate ADHD etc. Diagnosis is based on the number of deficits you have not in which areas. You might excel in one (often the case as certain areas become strengthened to compensate) and struggle in others.

The truth is diagnosis is a name for a collection of symptoms that enables a pathway to support and treatment. It could just as easily be conceptualised differently and may well be in future as we understand the human brain more, or discover more effective treatments. There's a push towards treating individual symptoms that show up across different diagnoses for example.

Exactly, a lot of ND people aren’t that different (or unique) from NT people, there is a lot of misinformation out there about what is is to be NT, it’s a lot more complex than many ND think

I also wonder about this. I've been reading a lot of autism and have many of the "traits". But how many "NT" people have these too? That it's only diagnosed if it's a problem is a problem for me! 😆I personally would reserve it if it was very problematic ie I'm not sure "high functioning" should be a thing. It's called having a personality. You get on with some people, some times you don't.

But happy to be corrected/informed. I do find it fascinating that those on the spectrum share similar traits, so I suppose for those who are "high functioning" it's a way to bond with other people. But surely they wouldn't have much in common with someone who's non-verbal and more in common with NT people.

This is why a thorough assessment with an appropriately qualified professional is so important, there are too many armchair psychologists and self diagnoses via social media. I’ve noticed on MN that the ‘ND’ label is thrown around far too easily, when someone mentions a fairly ubiquitous personality trait or behaviour.

I'm neither ND nor NT by the Mumsnet definition. They're both terms that are about as useful as the word "queer".

The thing is, I think the neurodiversity movement has some benefits. "Brains don't all work the same - if you find A helpful, why not try B as well?" I've read a lot of books for people with ADHD about how to reorganise your house to stop losing your keys, and been relieved to have solutions for things that were bothering me.

But the concept of neurotypicals is where the issue is. It creates this complete strawman of someone who is totally, naturally at ease in society with no effort. Because the definition of ND is so broad, the definition of NT has to be extremely narrow. It might be a useful term if it was meant as in, people who don't have severe and obvious mental disabilities such as totally non-verbal autistic people. But now it means someone who loves socialising 100% of the time, never loses anything, never feels anxious, never feels low-energy, is immediately at perfect ease in any social setting of any class with no training, and according to this thread doesn't even think any thoughts in their head?!... That person doesn't exist.

I think you have explained this very well. I am alarmed by the pathologising of very normal feelings.
Also on MN, lazy men who can't cook ot do housework are always ND. It's eaaier than believing they are just simply lazy and callous.

@seelookhearboo but to get diagnosed it has to have a substantial negative impact on your life.

My DD is 'high functioning' IE does not also have learning disability and is literally a genius. She is head girl at school, Captains her rugby team, tutors younger students, volunteers at a charity shop - then gets home and crashes, loses the ability to make any decisions and even talk sometimes. To you and others outside you'd never know. Our life is carefully curated around what she can cope with. If she's volunteering in the morning or playing a match the entire rest of the day and even weekend is a written off. Her sensitivity to noise limits where she can go and we tend to go to busy places like theatres or restaurants on weekday evenings instead of at the weekend.

Neurodiversity and neurodivergence are often conflated. What you are describing is neurodiversity, whereas neurodivergence is exactly that - divergence from the mean. This is how ND (e.g. autism, ADHD) is diagnosed, so it’ll never be the ‘norm’ as that would invalidate the entire diagnostic system.

NT but introvert and I identify with a lot of what you struggle with.

@seelookhearboo It’s how much it affects you though in different areas. I’m diagnosed ASD, I’m what would be described as high functioning in that I have a job, husband, DCs, friends. But what people don’t generally see is the struggle I have in certain areas, things that I’m sure yes, NT people struggle with too but not to the extent I do and that’s why I was diagnosed. Most people wouldn’t know that I hugely struggled in school, not only with social interaction and making friends but with being able to complete and stay on track with work too. I often was alone in break times in primary, was bullied at every stage, had breakdowns (i now know we’re meltdowns), pretended to be sick, panic attacks, I stimmed a lot (still do) which others found weird. I’ve struggled with depression and anxiety, self harm and breakdowns throughout my life. I struggle with going places by myself, meeting new people to the extent I will avoid it if I’m by myself, struggle with housework, struggle with sleeping, need help/reminding to do things like take medication, tidying, making appointments, even being able to have a drink or shower on bad days. Most people won’t see any of this and will think like you do that I must be similar to NT people but I don’t think that’s true.

yeah this is completely wrong, and tbh quite insulting, as it has an undertone suggesting NT people skip through life easily without any concerns or worries.

There's absolutely no reason that NT people would be more sociable or less prone to anxiety than ND people.

You can have extroverted ND people and introverted NT people.
I'm NT and can't think of anything worse than doing the children's choir thing like OP. I also hate making tel calls.

A lot of things in OP's post don't seem to be specific to ND at all - many people can be moody and get very angry, get anxious about going to new places etc.
The only things that stood out to me as quite unusual and not something I have experienced myself or in many other people are the 'moving' other people out of your way, and the not understanding text messages (I think struggles with indirect communication are one of the most common hallmarks of autism). Not to say that all NT people are excellent communicators, but I would say most people wouldn't have to scrutinise and stress over what a message means - which isn't to say they'd provide a perfect reply 100% of the time or never get things wrong and accidentally insult someone/miss a social cue.

The truth is diagnosis is a name for a collection of symptoms that enables a pathway to support and treatment. It could just as easily be conceptualised differently and may well be in future as we understand the human brain more.

I agree with this. I don’t think autism exists as a distinct condition. Our brains all work differently and part of this is displayed as certain behaviours/cognitive abilities that all overlap in different ways. A selection of these has been label ‘autism’ but because it is actually not a distinct condition there are ever broadening ‘comordities’ or ‘traits’ associated with it that overlap with others with other conditions or no noted conditions. And even the selection of behaviours that are used to define ‘autism’ are not actually a single group of behaviours with single causes but a group of similar behaviour outcomes from a range of causes. But I also think interest groups would be up in arms at the thought of having ‘autism’ or ‘adhd’ removed as a concept.

But there still is no norm: take a random person who may be considered by some as ‘NT’; they have am IQ of 116 that places their IQ in the top 16% of the population, they are female so now their thinking is the same as that of 8% of the population, they are over 70 years old so we are now down to less than 1%.