To ask what your neurotypical view is… What is normal?!

[2024namechanger]

My children are currently being assessed and whilst we don’t have a diagnosis, my dd has a lot of medical involvement and we have been told to prepare for ASD diagnosis (absolutely welcome this for her). She is mid teens and I had no idea when she was a child. After going through the child developmental assessments I realise that this is large part due to:

Me really struggling with social development as a child, blaming my mother, and ensuring that I taught my daughter how to behave (read:mask)
Me assuming I am totally normal and telling my daughter x y z was normal - I’m like that too!
Me having absolutely no clue as to what life is like for the NT.

I have no diagnoses. I am certain I have ADHD and will probably get assessed as actually I think it’s making me unwell - I can’t switch my brain off. I have ND traits and would be surprised if this added up to an ASD diagnosis. But I am also really struggling to work this out as I am not sure what normal is. If I am autistic it doesn’t have a big impact on me, and I have learnt multiple coping mechanisms, and avoidance! but would bring comfort.

So, if you are NT, how do you view the world?

[I hate it when people ask and don’t share their stuff. There was a lot in my childhood - I was very weird but I also had trauma at a young age and was lied to about family issues so whilst most things didn’t make any sense, there was a reason for that. I am big on self reflecting and have tried to change and adapt hugely as the years go on. I’m in my 40s now and have lots of kind and lovely friends.

SO Things I struggle with (eliminating ADHD stuff)
Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Making a phone call (I have to plan it, it’s stressful. If unexpected I can’t do it. I can answer a call much better - when it’s being led by me it’s harder). I can make calls as part of my job with little issue. Understanding social niceties/manners/how to begin convos, lots around this. I jump in the middle and forget to say hi. I try and be super polite and am referred to as blunt. Have friends who love me but am ‘marmite.’ Have a low tolerance for liars. Have rigidity but have learnt to understand that rules aren’t everything, have become a leader at work where you have to sometimes act outside of the rules. This took me years to learn, but I did it. Understanding text messages. I spend a lot of time ensuring I answer every element as I have got in trouble for being self involved and not responding to a key issue. Moods. I can really lose my temper. I try not to, but it actually makes me feel quite unwell as I get so angry. Often fantasise about living alone as it would better than the highs and lows I have. Understanding about other people. I tend to move people out of the way. I honestly would never do this thinkingly, and would be horrified if someone did it to me, but I have to admit I do this all the time. If I need to get across the kitchen I’ll just move someone. It makes sense in the moment. In retrospect that seems insane as I KNOW I should just say excuse me. But I don’t. I think I am getting worse around this.

However flipside I am very confident and can present to a room of strangers. I ran a children’s choir quite happily, singing in front of little kids. Hated the thought of it the night before, in the morning - huge stress. Loved it when I was actually doing it. Performing was horrifying but I just looked at them. Couldn’t fathom how they had the guts to face the audience! Can’t imagine I showed this. At work I am applauded as an excellent communicator. I am articulate. I can immediately pick apart a problem, find the fault and correct. I am often praised for ‘getting it’ and great understanding when working with other agencies. I loathe confrontation in my personal life but have no issue at work and will call someone out if needs be. I have to sit on emails for 24 hours to ensure I’m appropriate however, and have been advised to keep my mouth shut in the moment. Which I can do!!!

I thought my struggles were everyone’s but I read something recently which made me question this. I know at work that no one ever wants to call for the takeaway so I assume they don’t want to for the same reason? But maybe it’s different? What’s it like for you???

PS I’m not asking for thoughts on my ND or otherwise - you can’t diagnose over the internet and I have left everything out that I ‘know’ is a trait. I’m more interested in knowing if everyone feels like me. I felt very different to others as a kid but a lot more normal nowadays. So just curious I guess.

Well said, I totally agree, we are presented with a fictitious picture of ‘normal’ so everyone runs around like headless chickens shouting ‘I’m not normal’.
there is no normal, we are all individuals with different quirks of nature, to me that does not make us ND it makes us a human being.

I am very NT, when compared to my best friend who is ND. to specifically answer your question:
I don’t have any issues with going somewhere new or being alone
I don’t love making phone calls but they aren’t a problem really.
I don’t have any problems with social niceties or convos, in fact I think it’s really obvious when people do and I try to then be kinder to them in the situation. It comes very naturally to me to make conversation - a friend after watching Downton once said I’d have fit right in with all the unspoken rules and how de dos. Unsure if it was a compliment….
I don’t like liars but if the lie doesn’t impact me I don’t actually care and I understand in some circumstances why you would. I certainly tell white lies.
I’m quite good with adapting around rules and the ‘grey’ areas…some of this is learnt though, through the nature of my job I think
No issues with text messages, I must send hundreds in a day and am in at least eight group chats
I don’t think I’m particularly moody, unless somethings upset me and even then it’s no bother to pull myself together and decide not to be in a mood (unless it’s really bad of course). I do loose my temper sometimes, but not to the point of it impacting me and I can have my equilibrium back very quickly.
I wouldn’t like to live alone, I need to be around people. I’m not a total extrovert but I do need people - probably about 70% extrovert.
I cannot imagine ‘just moving someone’ and would think it the height of ignorance/rudeness if I saw it, and call it out if you did it to me. Excuse me or pardon me is second nature.

I certainly couldn’t diagnose you, but it does seem like you experience the world in a very different way than me.

Fully disagree with this. Being energised and stimulated by social interaction is extroversion, NT people are just as likely to be introverted and therefore find social interaction tiring and draining.

There is no “NT” worldview or personality or way of being. It’s just as much of a spectrum as neurodiversity is.

It is like ‘masking’ as if that is something only certain people do. Everybody masks how they feel in the presence of others. Often it is referred to as ‘being polite’, ‘good manners’, ‘behaving professionally’, ‘being friendly’. Do you think a nurse on a Saturday night night shift in A&E is being her ‘whole self’ when she patiently stitches up a cut on the hand of her tenth drunk of the night?

What the OP means is there's a constant voice in her head with different thoughts like an ongoing narration or conversation 24/7. Which NT people don't have.

What a sweeping generalisation! I disagree.

I'm merely saying that NT people too have anxiety (a normal and very necessary feature of human experience, designed to help us survive as a species) and can have constant chatter in their brain (also, survival)

I don't know how ND people experience the world, I'm very much NT, but I'm still a human being, not a house plant.
But being told that NT people don't experience anxiety or conversations with oneself is precisely what you're suggesting I'm doing.

IME, the difference between NT and ND is flexibility of thinking (ND people tend to be more rigid) and a felt sense of what is right or wrong in social situations without it being spelled out.

Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Lots of people struggle with this, I have many NT friends who would not enter somewhere by themselves.
Making a phone call nope, most NT people I know would not struggle with this unless they have very high anxiety.
Understanding social niceties/manners This is a biggie. You have to have a good theory of mind to understand these, and this is often more of a challenge for ND people.
how to begin convos Not easy for a lot of people, but again, theory of mind makes this easier. There are strategies you can use to help with this, lots online about it.
Have a low tolerance for liars. Most people dont love it - but again, IME, what is considered 'lying' and therefore beyond the pale, and what is social nicety is not always easy to unpick.
Understanding text messages. Hmm. Not sure if this is a ND issue - although communication is complex so perhaps without more context it makes it harder to understand what is required.
Moods. Lots of things impact mood, and it can be hard to manage and feel stable. But you may also be having ASD meltdowns, and may benefit from looking at info on zone of tolerance. Because you are probably used to overthinking in order to manage the world, it is possible you are getting stuck in thinking loops which affect your mood and make you feel worse.
Understanding about other people you mention moving people out of the way which many other people would experience as very rude, Rather than relying on what 'feels' right, you may need to have some rules for yourself which you always do. I.E. I never put hands on people at work unless it is to do CPR on someone who has collapsed. Developing more rules for yourself can take some of the pressure off.

Its is a great question as everyone sees the world in a different way, and trying to understand other peoples views is endlessly fascinating to us as a species. Good luck in the future.

It must be lovely to have an reason for all the times you feel you've messed up socially, said the wrong things, upset people, made the wrong choices, felt different to others etc. I would love to have a reason as I know it would make me feel so much better about myself. So I understand why people pursue a diagnosis. But, honestly, I think most people worry and get anxious about all sorts of things - it's part of life. I am hopeless at socialising and I dread it, but force myself to go out. I'm in my 50s and been very antisocial / shy my whole life, but I just accept it as part of my personality and make the best of my life. What else can anyone do?

There was a thread on here once (admittedly on the ND board) about how it would feel to be NT and not have thoughts going through your mind all day and have your brain switch off. When NT people said that was not their experience they were told to go away and stop neurosplaining.

It isn't possible to know what other people think or feel but it seems fair game for some ND people to assume they know how NT people think when it would be seen as hugely offensive if the opposite happened.

I've occasionally wondered if I am ND, but generally function pretty "normally". Things I do related to your questions:

Going somewhere new - I don't stress about this, but I do prepare. E.g. I booked a three day trip for April this week, and have already google street viewed every step I will need to take, to make sure I won't get lost, and I have planned what I will eat for the entire trip and where i will buy it from. Is that normal? Dunno. I quite enjoy it though, so don't see it as a problem.

The social/work side, I find it easy to fit into various teams at work, and I know I am perceived as easy going, friendly and well liked at work. I am definitely introverted, and was shy but have grown out of that. However I have no actual friends that I socialise with. All my (non-romantic) relationships are at a superficial "did you have a nice weekend" level. If I ever sought a diagnosis it would be to allow me to stop feeling shame about this. I feel like i need to hide the fact that I've never e.g. been to a hen do, or a party as an adult. However, I don't think that is really enough to make me ND. I think it just makes me socially inept, tbh.

I'm ok on the phone, i think most people plan a script for phone calls, we do it so much less now than 20 years ago. I am not sure these sort of examples are of any help to you, sorry.

Genuine question and not being goady.

How does a label make life harder?

I am reading between the lines an assumption that if you'd had a "label" to explain your dislike of those things, then you would have breathed a sigh of relief and gone "It's OK. I'm this type of person. I don't have to learn to do those things." and you would have been ultimately worse off - is that reading correct?

I am trying to understand this because I have an ADHD diagnosis and so do 2/3 of my DC, I got mine first and I found it lifechanging. My DH, while supportive, thinks the whole diagnosis thing is bizarre and wonders why it needs a "label" (he acknowledges medication is helpful) and in general he is no fan of labels of this type. He thinks people should be able to access medication and support if it is necessary, without a label. I would like to understand - we have talked about it but we talk past each other because it's like we are ascribing totally different meanings to the same words.

I agree that disliking phone calls is more of a generational thing than an ND specific thing BTW. We have got out of the habit of it, so we are less used to it and it feels more intrusive.

I'm pretty sure I'm NT and I have a permanent voice in my head - generally one beating me up and telling me what a failure I am. Life is bloody difficult for most people, especially when you have anxiety, depression and low self esteem. I don't recognise the descriptions of NT people in this thread. If only being NT meant we could switch our brains off and take to all social events like a second skin.

I have probably not explained very well, but I think anxiety about meeting people, being nervous about public speaking, worrying about going to a party alone is quite normal really, and not necessarily indicative of ND. The vast majority of people are nervous about these things. I also have a voice in my head most of the time. I think this is normal too!

I think I was better served by thinking all these things were normal, and could be improved. In my case, they did improve with practice. ( I am not saying that is the case for everyone).

DD is in her first job and had to do a huge number of interviews to get it. She tends to be anxious about these things, but I just tell her that feeling anxious is normal, and can be helped with preparation and practice. Her first interview was terrible, but by the last she was sailing through. It helped her, I think, more than rushing to label her.

OK - sorry to keep on. I still don't really understand what about a label would make it harder. Do you mean because you came to understand that everyone struggles with those things, but you saw people being successful at them, that meant that you could be too, and the label might get in the way of that? Because it would make you think that the other people didn't have the labelled issue so it was easier for them and it might not be as easy for you?

I think the things that you mention, some of them (public speaking, job interviews) make most people anxious, whereas talking to people and going to parties, even alone, would not make everyone feel anxious. I don't mean that it is abnormal to feel that way, because I agree that plenty of people would and if you looked around a room of people at a public event, you would not necessarily know which of them spent their 20s feeling anxious, and which of them loved every minute from the start.

I think my experience of ND is more extreme than that and I did think that way for a lot of years - oh, everyone finds this hard, I just have to get on with it. The problem was that it didn't get easier, and trying lots of different ways to improve didn't help. In fact the more things I tried the more I started to wonder what was wrong with me, because I was doing everything right according to what the books or advice said, or what worked for other people. I knew that not everything would work for me, but if nothing worked, then what?

What did help in the end was to find out that it was in fact more difficult for me than for most people, I wasn't imagining it, and for people who have my label, different approaches can help and this is what they are. And then talking to other labelled people to find out what they had found helpful. Obviously I still had to try, and put the effort in, but it was amazing how that was actually effective once I was using the right tools for me, that take my difficulties into account.

Actually this has been helpful. Thank you I have realised that DH said - but you could have used those approaches anyway, you don't need a label to do that. And the thing is, I couldn't. Because I didn't know they existed until after I had the label. Nobody talks about them outside of ND spaces - because the other things work for 97% of people. Not every approach works for every person, but the majority of approaches which are suggested for any given problem will be things which work for a much larger percentage of people, like 20% or 30% or even more than half. An approach which only works for some proportion of a group which makes up about 3% of people is never going to be very popular, it is much too niche - especially if it doesn't work for 97% or goes against what works for the majority. Unless you have a way to flag it as being helpful for that 3%. Which is what a label is and does.

I think your advice to your DD was exactly right.

Nobody talks about them outside of ND spaces - because the other things work for 97% of people.

You don’t mean ND spaces though do you? You mean autistic or adhd spaces.

@Tiggi7 YES! I get my voice when I'm reading internally but otherwise it's just abstract thoughts with no narration. So hard to explain but I know exactly what you mean.

Yes I do. Lots of them are referred to as ND spaces - I find it less clunky than to say ADHD/Autistic. I see from your username that you are not keen on the term. The actual name doesn't matter - I was illustrating the point of the value I found in having a "label".

I'm (as far as I know) NT and my brain absolutely never switches off. I find it hard to sleep because I have many different trains of thought happening at the same time. I often forget things that I shouldn't because my mind is so busy. Do ND people think we just go around with no thoughts?!

I am not keen on the term because they are not ND spaces even though they claim they are and claim to speak for ND individuals. Which all looks lovely until you read Autistic responses to consultations on bills such as the Scottish Government LDAN bill where they turn around and say ‘it should only consider autism’.

ND isn’t just autism / ADHD, though. That’s how it tends to be used on here, but ND is wider than that.

I find it a bit jarring to use ND when people really mean ASD most of the time here.

What else is considered to be ND?

Dyslexia, dyspraxia, all the other dys- conditions that as a dyslexic I can’t spell, Tourette’s. No doubt more that I’ve forgotten, and it depends who you talk to, but the ones I’ve mentioned are pretty much universally accepted to come under the ND “umbrella”.

I don't just mean autistic when I say ND. I don't think I'm in any solely-autistic online groups though, I have ADHD, so most of the places I tend to look at online are either ADHD focused or ADHD/ASD and some of the non-specific ND type groups include SPLD like dyslexia or other SEN (either parents of children or adults previously diagnosed), sensory processing disorder, various diagnosed MH issues (though not sure that is ND specifically - I do feel it can be adjacent and if people get value from a group I wouldn't gatekeep it) and lots of members who feel sure there is "something" ND, often have family members diagnosed but either aren't interested in looking into specifics or are on long waiting lists but nothing yet confirmed or they don't know, they just found themselves there. Some of them I tend to think of as ND spaces but they actually started out as parenting support (often gentle parenting kind of things) or some niche hobby or interest, it's just that with the more recent talk about neurodiversity online, you get those clusters within those spaces too, some broke off a sort of "mini-ND branch" and a couple of them just the ND type discussions have been so prominent that it's kind of overtaken the original focus of the group.

Yes, if that sounds like a lot of "spaces" - I definitely spend too much time online and contribute to too many different groups - I have realised that recently and have thought to perhaps try and prune a bit of it this year. It tends to be because my interest in different topics waxes and wanes, so when I get heavily into a topic, one forum is not usually enough, but then social media is designed to be addictive so I end up being sucked back in again by all of them.

I am NT and lots of things in your post apply to me

I hate phonecalls except with immediately family and especially hate impromptu calls. I find receiving calls easier than making them.

Im not energised by social interaction.i often dread it beforehand. I usually find i enjoy elements of it for a short while when i make myself go, and am glad i made the effort, but am left drained and need to recharge with a book at home.

I'm very successful at work but try too hard with friends and tend to put people off a bit socially. I was unpopular at school but ive got better with age because I'm more relaxed/care less what folk think. Over time i've "found my tribe" and built up some good long standing friendships. I do better 1 on 1 than in a group.

Hate going to conferences and having to introduce myself to people I don't know but will happily present to scary folk at a big meeting.

I am happy, no trouble holding down jobs, great family relationships, lovely DH of 10 years and two cracking kids.

Everything.

If you mean ‘neurodivergent’ then Dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, epilepsy, cerebral palsy, FASD, OCD, Bipolar disorder, Brain injury, dementia, genetic conditions, learning disability, high IQ, schizophrenia, depression, sensory processing disorders, EUPD, stroke, neglect, congenital hypothyroidism, medication-related conditions, nutrition-related conditions (such as iodine deficiency, mercury poisoning), attachment disorder…

As you should realise, many of these conditions occur at a much higher prevalence than autism/adhd.