To ask what your neurotypical view is… What is normal?!

[2024namechanger]

My children are currently being assessed and whilst we don’t have a diagnosis, my dd has a lot of medical involvement and we have been told to prepare for ASD diagnosis (absolutely welcome this for her). She is mid teens and I had no idea when she was a child. After going through the child developmental assessments I realise that this is large part due to:

Me really struggling with social development as a child, blaming my mother, and ensuring that I taught my daughter how to behave (read:mask)
Me assuming I am totally normal and telling my daughter x y z was normal - I’m like that too!
Me having absolutely no clue as to what life is like for the NT.

I have no diagnoses. I am certain I have ADHD and will probably get assessed as actually I think it’s making me unwell - I can’t switch my brain off. I have ND traits and would be surprised if this added up to an ASD diagnosis. But I am also really struggling to work this out as I am not sure what normal is. If I am autistic it doesn’t have a big impact on me, and I have learnt multiple coping mechanisms, and avoidance! but would bring comfort.

So, if you are NT, how do you view the world?

[I hate it when people ask and don’t share their stuff. There was a lot in my childhood - I was very weird but I also had trauma at a young age and was lied to about family issues so whilst most things didn’t make any sense, there was a reason for that. I am big on self reflecting and have tried to change and adapt hugely as the years go on. I’m in my 40s now and have lots of kind and lovely friends.

SO Things I struggle with (eliminating ADHD stuff)
Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Making a phone call (I have to plan it, it’s stressful. If unexpected I can’t do it. I can answer a call much better - when it’s being led by me it’s harder). I can make calls as part of my job with little issue. Understanding social niceties/manners/how to begin convos, lots around this. I jump in the middle and forget to say hi. I try and be super polite and am referred to as blunt. Have friends who love me but am ‘marmite.’ Have a low tolerance for liars. Have rigidity but have learnt to understand that rules aren’t everything, have become a leader at work where you have to sometimes act outside of the rules. This took me years to learn, but I did it. Understanding text messages. I spend a lot of time ensuring I answer every element as I have got in trouble for being self involved and not responding to a key issue. Moods. I can really lose my temper. I try not to, but it actually makes me feel quite unwell as I get so angry. Often fantasise about living alone as it would better than the highs and lows I have. Understanding about other people. I tend to move people out of the way. I honestly would never do this thinkingly, and would be horrified if someone did it to me, but I have to admit I do this all the time. If I need to get across the kitchen I’ll just move someone. It makes sense in the moment. In retrospect that seems insane as I KNOW I should just say excuse me. But I don’t. I think I am getting worse around this.

However flipside I am very confident and can present to a room of strangers. I ran a children’s choir quite happily, singing in front of little kids. Hated the thought of it the night before, in the morning - huge stress. Loved it when I was actually doing it. Performing was horrifying but I just looked at them. Couldn’t fathom how they had the guts to face the audience! Can’t imagine I showed this. At work I am applauded as an excellent communicator. I am articulate. I can immediately pick apart a problem, find the fault and correct. I am often praised for ‘getting it’ and great understanding when working with other agencies. I loathe confrontation in my personal life but have no issue at work and will call someone out if needs be. I have to sit on emails for 24 hours to ensure I’m appropriate however, and have been advised to keep my mouth shut in the moment. Which I can do!!!

I thought my struggles were everyone’s but I read something recently which made me question this. I know at work that no one ever wants to call for the takeaway so I assume they don’t want to for the same reason? But maybe it’s different? What’s it like for you???

PS I’m not asking for thoughts on my ND or otherwise - you can’t diagnose over the internet and I have left everything out that I ‘know’ is a trait. I’m more interested in knowing if everyone feels like me. I felt very different to others as a kid but a lot more normal nowadays. So just curious I guess.

Social anxiety used to disable me, actually. When I was in my early twenties, I barely spoke to anyone except at work. I was scared of many things including public speaking, speaking to strangers, walking into a party alone... so many things.

Let's just say that life taught me a few lessons and I had no choice but to learn how to do all of these things. As pp said, sometimes we learn these skills over time and with practice. I still don't like talking on the phone, but that I think is not a sign of being NT, but simply a thing now.

Life is hard. Labelling everyone makes it harder.

@Plastictrees

Well said 👏

Indeed, there is much literature and art on just how difficult being human is.

Truer words were never spoken. A lot of us women in or post menopause fantasise about living alone. A lot of us get angry. We are not necessarily ND.

I've always assumed I'm NT, I've never felt the need for assessment so presumably I'm right. There's such a wide range of ND, someone on MN said if you know one person with Autism, then you know one person with Autism- it's not a one size fits all and being NT is the same. I love day trips and lunches with friends but I wouldn't want to holiday with them - I'm happy at home with my DP and drunken hen nights are my idea of Hell.
The only real example I can offer you Op - someone at work with ASD, every day he'd stop and have a chat but he seemed to be almost following a script, I knew what he'd say before he said it, and I was polite, but puzzled. When I left work he came to say goodbye and said he'd seen me as a friend, which I found surprising and touching. Maybe that's the difference, I didn't understand that what I considered a casual chat was more to him?

So are you saying all introverted people who aren’t social are ND?

@2024namechanger I don't think you can point at any one thing and say - I'm NT or I'm ND. Nor do I think that if someone finds something difficult/impossible/ hard to understand or do it must be because they have ASD. Life IS hard sometimes and we are not all the same in how we deal with things.

Even those who are NT will be different to each other. Some will be outgoing, some will be introverts. Some will be rude and noisy, others quiet. The effects of their environment when they are growing up can impact hugely too. But ASD is how your brain is wired ( for want of a better way of putting it), so not caused by your environment

I see nothing in what you said, that screams ASD to me. It seems normal to me anyway. I can identify all those things you have said, in me, SOME of the time - but that doesn't mean I never react to things in other ways too.

I have thought about it, yes, because I have a grandson who was clearly Autistic from a very young age and was diagnosed at age 3. But I believe I am NT - and really, what does it matter ( for me)? I had a successful career, have a lovely husband, brought up two children ( some of it on my own), am now retired and have plenty of interests to keep me busy.

It worries me so much, as a PP said upthread, that being a human being is now pathologised and whoever we are as people, if things aren't perfect in our lives, there must be something wrong with the individual person, and we need to stick a label on them, instead of trying to fix the ( very imperfect and unequal) world we live in

Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own.

Not my favourite but I've got better as it as I got older and now I hardly think about it whereas I used to really stress about it

Making a phone call (I have to plan it, it’s stressful. If unexpected I can’t do it. I can answer a call much better

I have to pretend I'm not making the phonecall then sneak up on the task like a ninja. It was never a problem for work but I've put off calling my daughter's orthodontist for over a week.

Understanding social niceties/manners/how to begin convos, lots around this.
Sometimes I find beginning conversation harder than others. I think I can be overly polite/formal rather than blunt as I'm never sure if someone can take a jokey, more casual approach. As I get older I realise I'm old enough to get away with it more now.
I used to hate the niceties of work phonecalls. "How are you?" "Fine, how are you" and just think get to the point please.

Have a low tolerance for liars
I am a good pattern matcher so good at spotting patterns in people's behaviour. It's not so much liars that I struggle with but inauthenticity and inconsistency and incongruency.

. Understanding text messages.
I think it's quite normal that people take shortcuts in communication that makes it not always clear

Moods. I can really lose my temper.
I handle my emotions well. Too well. Sometimes a more immediate 'I'm not going to accept that' response is more appropriate.

No idea where I fall on the spectrum.

I would think entering an unknown space alone is less comfortable than entering with friends or entering a well-known space alone for everyone. I wouldn’t think that’s a NT/ND difference necessarily.
I do exactly the same as you with phone calls because I can’t hear 100%. There are many other challenges with the phone besides being NT.

Wow loads of replies! I missed the reported ones so thankful for that. No I don’t think teaching my dd to mask will impact her diagnosis. It did help cover it for too long tho, leading to a complete crisis in her mid-teens, which has been extremely traumatic. I also think I was unintentionally gaslighting her by consistently telling her everyone feels like X, that’s normal. Turns out it’s not, and it isn’t.

So yes; diagnosis is really important for some people. As they can just crumble in front of you when it comes to a stress point.

[No offence intended with the word normal - I merely mean society norms, ie the usual response]

The ADHD switch off thing? A couple of years ago I was seriously unwell. Temp of 41 degrees, slipping in and out of consciousness at home, vomiting, to weak to stand, couldn’t speak as too weak. In the brief periods I was awake I planned a series of events for the choir, sent emails to parents. Went into hospital, straight into ICU. Discharged over a week later. That’s what I mean about being unable to switch off. I have other reasons for thinking I have ADHD tho - this is just the reason I think diagnosis would help as I am constantly doing something - usually everything, all at the same time which is affecting my health. So I don’t rest and my body is not doing as it should. Perhaps this is the same for everyone? But… with all due respect, I really don’t see others flying around doing everything, volunteering for everything. So they must be pretty good at telling their inner voice to shut up!

I didn’t mean to oversimplify but I can see I have. I just as really just interested to know if ‘everyone’ has the same struggles. As I always assumed everyone did. I would describe myself as an extrovert. I thrive in small circles of friends and can charge up from social interaction. I know autistic extroverts and introverts; totally aware that both exist. I think I have trained myself out of monologuing about interests. I used to tell one particular story every day! Cringe when I look back!

I think , normal is different for all of us
No two people are the same regardless of any diagnosis
You can have siblings in a family who are completely different,same upbringing but different personalities,
It's a three year wait minimum on NHS for an autism assessment as an adult,and there's no help after receiving a diagnosis
But you do get peace of mind and if you read some books on autism,you get a bit of understanding
I have a diagnosis of autism that I received after my children were diagnosed.
I can predict a bit now ,what I'm going to find difficult and plan for it ,or avoid it .
I can understand how I've ended up in certain situations and why I acted as I did which lead to where I am today.
But I've not changed as a person,having a diagnosis
I'm still struggling with my moods ,all the things I've spent my life finding difficult are still there ,and then throw menopause in to the mix and it's a volcano.
It definitely didn't change my life , having a diagnosis..for the 3 years waiting for assessment it's all I thought about ..would I get a diagnosis or would I not ..
Then when it was a yes ,I've barely given it a thought since .

I am NT with a ND daughter and DH. They are very loved and we rub along well.

The closest I can describe it is just that I kind of bosh my way through life. Phone rings, pick it up. Bit stinky? Have a shower, who cares if you had one earlier. See someone I wasn't expecting to see and CBA to talk to? Tell a white lie about an appointment. Don't like the look of a food? Just eat the other stuff on the plate. Forgotten to prep for a meeting? Either wing it, or do a quick skim read before going in. Car accident? Well these are the logical steps, what a faff but I'll sort it.

Life just really isn't that hard for me but for them, it really really is. One wobble and the whole house of cards is at risk of tumbling down. It's like they can't deviate from the expected very easily, won't fib or fudge to make life easier and need a level of predictability that I just would find stifling.

I think this thread is at risk of just saying ND = introvert, which isn't the case at all. I do happen to be an extrovert, but my DD3 is an introverted NT person who is drained by people and has a rich inner world, but she is, like me, one of life's "boshers" 😀

What the OP means is there's a constant voice in her head with different thoughts like an ongoing narration or conversation 24/7. Which NT people don't have

^

😂

I'm as 'NT' as they come, and yes, there's a 24/7 narration

No silence....because we're alive

You couldn’t be more wrong. I am NT and have been completely ‘disabled’ by those things. At times I have struggled to leave the house, I had months of work and dropped out of my university degree.

I would never tell an ND person what they should think/feel or how they experience life, so I would appreciate it if you didn’t do that to NT people such as myself.

I think most humans struggle to one extent or another with the complexities of social behaviour in our modern world, and this is made a lot worse by technology and social media. The socially confident, utterly competent, easy personality with a level head and a calm approach who makes friends easily and is never anxious doesn’t exist, or is very rare imo. I think the massive increase in ND diagnoses just points to the fact we are all ND to some degree and we are living in times and societies completely unsuitable for the human brain and almost all people’s personalities to cope with.

We all a little bit weird and different to each other rather than different from each other

if you have mental capacity, praise the Lord and run with it
any socialising - do it as it suits you best

@Marianus are you sure you're NT though? I thought I was NT until I was about 40 even though I had a DS who was so stereotypically autistic even I (with then very limited knowledge) couldn't fail to notice. Looking back, it's laughable that I thought I was NT but there we are!

Who knows if I'm NT or ND but DH is a fully diagnosed, paid up, member of the ND tribe.

One of the key differences I see between myself and DH is working memory. His is almost non existent. This isn't just forgetting to buy milk at the supermarket of forgetting a family member's birthday. It's forgetting to even go to the supermarket or that the person with the birthday exists. He might leave 6 months between messaging his closest friend. This friendship is very important to him and highly valued but he just won't remember to communicate with them because they aren't immediately in his line of sight. He's also forgotten to go to gigs that he's bought tickets for, missed many drs appointments (ironically one recently was to participate in a study on poor memory for AuDHD folk) etc. I might be forgetful but it's no where near the same scale as DH.

Obviously these conditions exist within a spectrum so not everybody has the same experience. This is just my observations and a theme that DH really struggles to manage.

Isn’t normal a line which the majority of the human race sits on somewhere and others fall off, either one end or the other. There seems to be a depressing rush to be “normal” at the moment. As normal isn’t one thing, it cannot be defined which means we should just both celebrate and accept our differences whilst supporting (with all our hearts) those who cannot sit in their place on the line without support.
Don’t strive to be normal; strive to be part of the amazing human race, everyone giving and receiving support in equal measure.

I don’t think anyone is ‘neurotypical’.

If we take neurodiversity to be the diversity of how we think then the single biggest cause is age. But most people don’t like to consider that. Then IQ (learning disabilities are allowed to be considered at times, but rarely high IQ, and rarer other IQs). And cognitive function can be broken down into things like processing speed, working memory that may or may not be a part of another condition. The various neurodevelopmental conditions like dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism, adhd, dyscalculia, sensory processing conditions, epilepsy. There are other conditions like EUPD, schizophrenia, depression, psychopathy, bipolar disorder, OCD. Sensory disabilities like deafness or blindness can change how we think too. As can different languages or being a polymath. Then there are acquired brain conditions like stroke, dementia, cerebral palsy, cancer, traumatic brain injury, CJD, brain injury from diseases like meningitis. Plus of course drugs (street or medical) use can cause permanent changes. Then we get into a weirder realm of parasites and their impact on our thinking…. And gut bacteria is a big source of study. Plus genetic conditions, nutrition (eg iodine deficiency or mercury poisoning), neglect as a child, conditions acquired in the womb (eg FASD, rubella)

Too often I hear ‘We must consider neurodiversity. I don’t mean all that! I mean autistic like me, not those other things!’

Doesn't exist is my opinion. There is no typical brain. All brains are different. Also the term ND was created to talk about all brains not specific ones.

Yes I’m positive. I don’t want to go into detail about my mental health but I’m definitely not ND

I am NT and this definitely isn’t the case with me. I have to make a real effort to see people and feel drained for a long time after socialising. I also worry constantly that I’ve said the wrong thing and frequently do ‘put my foot in it’.

OP I also hate making calls - and don’t mind receiving them so much. I think for me it’s the anticipation. I’m also rubbish if I have an appointment that isn’t first thing in the morning as it means I get nothing done ahead of it as I’m just thinking about the appt and getting there. So I guess it’s kind of the same with phone calls!

I am good at reading people and understanding what’s wanted in a professional situation, but have fallen down sometimes for not understanding enough of what’s required of in terms of ‘soft skills’ around that ie I’ll just want to arrive and start the job in hand straight away, not have a cup of tea and a biscuit sort of thing….

I think sometimes I probably do better socially with strangers than people I know - it feels easier to start things off I guess.

I hope some of that’s helpful and things go smoothly with your daughter’s assessment.

What does this mean for me then that I have absolutely zero internal narration?! It totally blew my mind when I found out that other people actually think in words. I have thoughts flying around constantly, but they're not in words. Just... thoughts. Pre-verbal concepts I suppose 🤣

I imagine for NT people they just have that social brain, as in they are energised and stimulated from social interaction and seek it out. They are probably also just naturally predisposed to be social in general and don’t think twice about what they’re going to say.

This is SO not true. Next, NT people can leap buildings in a single bound! I am being facetious, because they way NT people have been eulogised on this thread is weird.
We feel anxious, sad, worried, nervous, tired from socialising, peopled out just like anyone else.

A lot of NTs people are introverts and not extroverts.