Is it really that wrong to want for your country what Trump stands for?

[Anniedash]

I know that there are plenty of threads on Trump at the moment, but most of them are designed to rubbish the guy. That’s been done to death in the last 10 years.

He has still won two presidential elections so perhaps it’s time to move the discussion on a bit.Let’s put aside Trump’s personality, bluster, and whether he will deliver or not, for a second.

Is it really so wrong and bad to want to go for what his core message is? Why is the far right label used so liberally and will we ever see a government in this country which can tackle this madness -

A stop to or huge reduction in illegal immigration

Putting your own country first ahead of internationalism. It’s not a novel idea and certainly not a byword for automatically wanting war. In fact Trump’s argument is that war is bad

Saying no the climate hysteria. Climate change is real but climate emergency seems to be a made up concept to simply tax people to death to re distribute taxes to government lobbyists. Why should people accept being poorer in the name of this dangerous ideology

Putting a stop to woke madness. When did it become ok for state sponsored mutilation of children? Men pretending to be women in prison and hospitals getting access to women’s spaces. People being sanctioned do not using the correct pronouns

Driving the economy forward and putting a stop to endless freebies for those who have no intention of contributing to the system and refuse to work because they are sad.

The fact that someone as eccentric as Trump has to fly the flag for common sense ideas shows you just how batshit the political discourse has become.

It is not as related as you think.

It is a partial explanation, yes. But how much? Up for debate.

Again, to bring this point in a less black-white context:

Vietnamese and Hmong came to America roughly the same period of time, equally with nothing, as they were refugees.

Why is one group now wealthy and highly educated, out earning even white Americans? Why is the other still mired in poverty and committing crimes at an elevated rate?

Nobody (but another Asian lol) could seriously tell the difference between a Hmong and a Vietnamese person, so the level of discrimination would be constant.

But the outcomes are wildly different.

There is no simple explanation for this.

You still banging on about black people? I posted a report (one of many) demonstrating that black people are 4 times more likely to be incarcerated than white people. It's well documented that the police force and judicial system are biased.

Anyone would think you were posting in bad faith. You're ignoring facts in favour of blind prejudice.

I’m not going to go through a bunch of old posts. Please post it again, interested in seeing this.

But disproportionate incarceration is not evidence of bias by itself.

Otherwise you’d also be saying the criminal justice system is misandrist. Nobody thinks this.

That's a false equivalence. Men are made up of all races and ethnicities.

Here's info on the report here. There were some reports on the US government website but it's disappeared for some reason.

I'm surprised that you find it difficult to believe that a country with a legacy of slavery and apartheid is racist.

That's a false equivalence. Men are made up of all races and ethnicities

Men are more violent everywhere on this planet and commit 90%+ of all violent crimes.

Yet we don’t say that the justice system is ‘anti-male’. If anything, it is anti-female, because we aren’t getting enough justice for rape and femicide, and we aren’t prosecuting low level sexual assault as aggressively as we should be.

In short? Disparity by itself is not enough evidence.

If you commit four times the amount of crime, you can expect to be jailed at higher rates. This is not terribly surprising.

Do you really expect that all male demographics should be equally represented in jail?

It's a false equivalence because you are basing your argument on skin colour alone. Men are socialised differently to women and men of all nationalities commit more crime than women.

It has been proven that a black person committing the same crime as a white person, is four times more likely to be incarcerated. That black people are three times more likely to be killed by the police.

The US is renowned for its racist police. The world watched a policeman murder a black man while his colleagues strolled around.

It's a false equivalence because you are basing your argument on skin colour alone. Men are socialised differently to women and men of all nationalities commit more crime than women

This is very telling. Do you believe male crime is really down to ‘socialization’?

It has been proven that a black person committing the same crime as a white person, is four times more likely to be incarcerated

Thats not what you linked though? It just said they were incarcerated at four times the rate. It didn’t say ‘for
the same crime’.

Interesting discussion, when people link to UN or other reports I wonder what they'll do if US funding stops

Exactly, it would be interesting to see a crime breakdown along socio-economic lines

Read the report then you'll understand it better.

Of course men are socialised differently. Men have more testosterone which would explain their propensity towards violence and risk taking behaviour.

The report is 32 pages. Surely if this was the conclusion, then it would have been reported as such on the UN article for the general public?

As it happens, I searched a few key words like ‘same crime’ and ‘equivalent crime’ and it didn’t come up.

But it did say in my quick scan that sees this disproportionality as a manifestation of the entrenched systemic racism against people of African descent in the United States

So disproportionality itself was enough for them to conclude that the criminal justice system was racially biased. Which is absolute garbage.

I suppose following this twisted logic, you could also conclude that the American criminal justice system is misandrist as well … (and we don’t need loads of charts and data to know this isn’t true at all)

Democracy works pretty well in the UK and USA. The deportation of criminals in accordance with the law to save lives is hardly a moral wrong. it is the upholding of the law.

You haven't read the report so have decided it's 'garbage'. There are plenty of reports into the systemic racism in the US.

You've already pulled the 'misandrist' line. It's not an equivalent argument.

You'd probably argue that South Africa isn't racist either.

Of course men are socialised differently. Men have more testosterone which would explain their propensity towards violence and risk taking behaviour

And because men commit 90%+ of the violent crimes in America, it’s a HUGE difference. And not easily fixed either. But we’ve gotta do it.

I have always said that I believe America has an under-incarceration problem, actually. More men, of all demographics, need to face consequences for destructive behaviors.

She definitely would.

She already stated that she doesn’t believe poverty has anything to do with black crime.

It beggars belief that she thinks it’s ok to espouse this nonsense whilst living in the UK.

The explanation is not going to be as simple as that

what on earth are you talking about?

there’s absolutely nothing “simple” whatsoever about the dynamics of structural racism - But structural racism is absolutely the reason why black people are overrepresented in crimes statistics.

What other possible reason could there be? Are you trying to suggest that black people are genetically more likely to be criminals?

Yes, she is.

She has determined that the white American boys who shoot children at school indiscriminately do it because they are alienated, which requires study and understanding.

The black kids who shoot children at school in a targeted manner because of gang ‘beef’ do not deserve understanding or study.

At this point, I think you could cut her in half and see KKK running through her like rock. I wonder if she joined in with Musk’s sieg heil.

She has determined that the white American boys who shoot children at school indiscriminately do it because they are alienated, which requires study and understanding

Yes

The black kids who shoot children at school in a targeted manner because of gang ‘beef’ do not deserve understanding or study

Doesn’t follow. I just point out that the pattern is different so would presumably require a different intervention. Not ignore it or whatever you think I am suggesting.

At this point, I think you could cut her in half and see KKK running through her like rock. I wonder if she joined in with Musk’s sieg hei

It is absolutely disgusting to suggest violence on my person. I haven’t reported it because I want other people to see what you’ve said here.

The options aren't "structural racism only" and "genetically criminal only". You're completely omitting "culture", which in different ways contributes to both the "loner 4chan incel" and the "gangland rapper" profiles, or whatever it is you're all arguing about. But it's quite obvious that a) different racial groups are represented differently in those profiles and b) different solutions are appropriate for different profiles.

Are you saying that deaths caused by black gang members don't matter as much as deaths caused by white incels, because they only became gang members due to structural racism and are therefore more sympathetic? Because that's the equivalent of what you're accusing the PP of saying.

Can you just assume that you both think every death is tragic regardless of the killer's motivations, and continue your discussion on causes and solutions assuming good faith?

😂

Idioms are one of the many wonderful things about the British language.

In case you don’t know what an idiom is (because, you know, you’re you…), it’s an expression where there is a figurative meaning different to the literal meaning of the words.

Still refusing to tell any of us why it is you think black crime stats are so high, I see.

You are confident it’s not poverty, it’s not alienation, it’s not generational trauma, it’s not systemic racism…so what is it?

What is “culture” , and what produces it , if not the structural conditions of society?

Or are you suggesting that there is an essential “black culture” with a propensity to criminal gang activity, that comes from what… DNA?

It’s hard to have good faith with this poster because they are so tediously racist.

Several people have repeatedly asked them why they believe black crime stats are as they are and they won’t answer - just say what it definitely isn’t (poverty, racism, trauma etc).

But since you asked, whilst I don’t think one life is any less worthy than another, nor any death less or more tragic, I do see the mass indiscriminate killing of children in schools as scarier than gang-on-gang violence. To me, the predominantly white boys who carry out school shootings are killing for fun not perceived ‘need’.

So do most people, I’d hazard a guess. It’s why the Southport killings saw such an outpouring of grief and rage whilst the horrible stabbings that happen all too often in cities barely make the news anymore.

Maybe it’s the total lack of explanation - gang violence has some semblance of ‘reason’ although entirely misguided and unjustified. I feel the same about state sanctioned executions. People think it is justified.

It's interesting to read non black people's views about black people.
White people have spent the last 400 years murdering their way around the world, raping and stealing as they progressed. Is that genetic? Can any of you explain why that happened and is still being threatened by the whites in America? The administration is planning on invading Greenland, Panama, Mexico and is going to help Israel clear the Palestinians out of their 'beach front' location. No doubt, the death of people in these countries will just be written off as collateral damage.

As for RingoJuice, the nerve of an immigrant like you wanting to remove people from a country you have immigrated to! If you don't like the people where you live, I suggest you return to your homeland. I guess it doesn't matter really, when Trump has finished deporting the slightly brown skinned catholics to Mexico, he will be deporting everyone else, unless of course you can pass yourself off as a person of european origin.

Hear hear hear!

@JHound

Men do not get to kill an innocent person to preserve their bodily autonomy.

If a woman's life is endangered by a pregnancy that's a different conversation.

Bodily autonomy doesn't extend to causing the death of another person if your own life isn't endangered. That's murder.

If I don't consent to using my body to provide for the needs of my young born child, the law will not excuse me. Very young children require others to use their body to care for them, too.

It is not morally right to end the life of an innocent child, born or unborn.