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Is it really that wrong to want for your country what Trump stands for?

1000 replies

Anniedash · 20/01/2025 06:51

I know that there are plenty of threads on Trump at the moment, but most of them are designed to rubbish the guy. That’s been done to death in the last 10 years.

He has still won two presidential elections so perhaps it’s time to move the discussion on a bit.Let’s put aside Trump’s personality, bluster, and whether he will deliver or not, for a second.

Is it really so wrong and bad to want to go for what his core message is? Why is the far right label used so liberally and will we ever see a government in this country which can tackle this madness -

A stop to or huge reduction in illegal immigration

Putting your own country first ahead of internationalism. It’s not a novel idea and certainly not a byword for automatically wanting war. In fact Trump’s argument is that war is bad

Saying no the climate hysteria. Climate change is real but climate emergency seems to be a made up concept to simply tax people to death to re distribute taxes to government lobbyists. Why should people accept being poorer in the name of this dangerous ideology

Putting a stop to woke madness. When did it become ok for state sponsored mutilation of children? Men pretending to be women in prison and hospitals getting access to women’s spaces. People being sanctioned do not using the correct pronouns

Driving the economy forward and putting a stop to endless freebies for those who have no intention of contributing to the system and refuse to work because they are sad.

The fact that someone as eccentric as Trump has to fly the flag for common sense ideas shows you just how batshit the political discourse has become.

OP posts:
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Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 24/01/2025 14:59

I'm curious why Ringo you are saying white men killing people in mass shootings are doing so because they feel disenfranchised?

Sounds a lot like victim blaming.

RingoJuice · 24/01/2025 15:46

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 24/01/2025 14:59

I'm curious why Ringo you are saying white men killing people in mass shootings are doing so because they feel disenfranchised?

Sounds a lot like victim blaming.

It’s to draw a distinction between random killings with no particular target (white and East Asian pattern) and those that are targeted and usually due to some sort of ‘beef’ or perceived insult (black pattern).

I’m not sure how this could be construed as victim blaming tbh

Feelslikewinter · 24/01/2025 17:29

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Crikeyalmighty · 24/01/2025 17:42

@RingoJuice out of interest -are you south East Asian ? - as you keep mentioning south east Asia -

OneAmberFinch · 24/01/2025 17:45

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I'm not the person you're responding to but isn't this obvious?

The advice you give to your daughter who is scared of her male partner who hits her is going to be different to the advice you give to your daughter who is going backpacking in Sao Paulo. Either of them might get murdered and neither murder would be "worse" but you wouldn't use the same strategies to avoid both possible murders, and the motivations of the possible murderers will be different.

Feelslikewinter · 24/01/2025 18:25

OneAmberFinch · 24/01/2025 17:45

I'm not the person you're responding to but isn't this obvious?

The advice you give to your daughter who is scared of her male partner who hits her is going to be different to the advice you give to your daughter who is going backpacking in Sao Paulo. Either of them might get murdered and neither murder would be "worse" but you wouldn't use the same strategies to avoid both possible murders, and the motivations of the possible murderers will be different.

No, it’s not at all obvious.

reading most of the idiotic comments Ringojuice makes, it seems as though she is making an argument that black people are inherently more violent than any other race.

As abhorrent as that is, it seems that the latest comment I am responding to goes further, and in some way suggests the random murder of children in their classrooms by white Americans is a less bad murder than the children targeted by black Americans over some supposed ‘beef’.

If that is indeed her position, I want to know how she can possibly defend it.

What you would tell your daughter is neither here nor there - although I highly suspect RJ wouldn’t allow her daughter to date a black boy.

You know, because she’s racist.

RingoJuice · 24/01/2025 22:15

Wow, being called racist for noting that there are different patterns to male violence. That’s a new one.

(Although we are weirdly seeing a new pattern emerge of alienated girls on prescribed testosterone shooting up schools. Something we should talk about, no?)

admirible · 24/01/2025 22:18

I’m not worried about Trumps misguided nationalism, the woke snowflake generation are going to turn that shit around.

biscuitandcake · 25/01/2025 02:30

RingoJuice · 24/01/2025 11:16

Male violence is real, they commit the vast majority of violent crime. And we should put that first and foremost in any strategy to combat crime.

But part of what you said here is totally false. I know WHY you said it. We all want to believe this, it seems nice and comforting. But … it’s just not true.

America is the only place (that I know of) where one group of women is more likely to murder someone than other groups of males. In my home country, black women are more likely to murder somebody than a male of white or East Asian descent.

Attached image are the FBI stats on this phenomenon (as it happens, I don’t think black women are more dangerous to me personally, as most crime is intraracial rather than interracial in nature)

I'm a bit confused about how the crime statistics link to your arguments about immigration
Your argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that black people are more violent/commit more violent crime than other races in the US. But most black people in America aren't immigrants (or at least no more than most Americans are) and in many cases have been there for longer than a lot of white Americans. So I don't understand the reason for jumping between statistics organised by race and discussions about the "culture" that immigrants come from and the impact that has on their integration in America. The implication is the statistics support your arguments but they don't.

If white American men are committing crimes because they are disenfranchised, surely that could also be the reason that black American men are committing crimes? Disemfranchisement, drug addictions, economic marginalisation could be behind some of the crimes of both groups or not. Regardless, the "culture" that forments the violence will be an American one not an African, European or Asian one. Actually by your logic, since the violent crime rate is so much higher in America (for all races) than anywhere in Europe we should be very wary of American immigrants importing their "violent cultures" into Albions shores (I don't really think this, my American neighbours are lovely).

Ihavehadenoughalready · 25/01/2025 03:03

As an American who has been viscerally repulsed by Trump from the get-go and has studied history very extensively, I now fully understand how the events of Europe in the 30's happened. As a teen, I thought it could never ever ever happen again, because everyone would know how to spot a fascist and of course the citizenry would never allow that again. I didn't realize that some people are quite OK with nationalism/fascism if they mistakenly think it will benefit them personally, no matter the consequences to others.

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 04:42

These are all interesting questions!

Your argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that black people are more violent/commit more violent crime than other races in the US. But most black people in America aren't immigrants (or at least no more than most Americans are) and in many cases have been there for longer than a lot of white Americans

A few pages back it was clear we were first talking about EU/UK immigration (where immigration from Pakistan is high, and perhaps they bring some unwanted aspects of their culture. Rwanda was a place where ordinary people took machetes to hack apart their neighbors).

But we had digressed into this topic, yes. Of course what we call ‘foundational black Americans’ are totally American. They have a far higher crime rate than any other demographic, and yes, we should try to correct that for everyone’s safety (and because most crime is intraracial, it affects the safety of the black community as well).

If white American men are committing crimes because they are disenfranchised, surely that could also be the reason that black American men are committing crimes?

Idk I think it is fair to say different groups face different challenges. I mentioned that black women have very high murder rates. Yet that is mostly due to her having a violent male in the home. I don’t have the source rn, but I had read that black women had much lower homicides rates when mass incarceration was at its peak—their violence was very often a response to a violent male in her presence.

White women will probably have higher rates of homicides too, if the recent school shooting incidents are any indication. White girls who trans themselves and inject testosterone may act on violent impulses. This will eventually show up, I suspect.

Regardless, the "culture" that forments the violence will be an American one not an African, European or Asian one

No but certain patterns by race/ethnic group and sex will be evidence and it does no good to deny this.

Actually by your logic, since the violent crime rate is so much higher in America (for all races) than anywhere in Europe we should be very wary of American immigrants importing their "violent cultures" into Albions shores (I don't really think this, my American neighbours are lovely)

Well you’ve every right not to if we are too violent.

In fact, US servicemen have caused a LOT of trouble in Okinawa. There was one horrific gangrape back in the 90s and it periodically happens since then.

And they’ve tried to lobby the Japanese government to shut down or move the bases. I can absolutely understand why they don’t want American servicemen near them.

They will be very demographically different to the Americans you know irl. They will be largely young men, drawn from lower socioeconomic classes (not incidentally a lot of the rapists were of African American background, which was another huge issue in the whole dispute. In the 90s incident, American military spokespeople had unwisely accused the Japanese of being racist towards blacks before the evidence became very overwhelming)

Outsiders won’t understand it, but there is yet another layer of complication: Okinawa was obliterated during WW2, they hold some resentment towards their ‘fellow’ Japanese for ‘sacrificing their islands’ in the defense of Japan, and that they were sacrificed because they are not seen as ‘really Japanese’. The history of Okinawa is fascinating but very complicated as far as their identity goes.

Sticking a huge number of US military bases in Okinawa is seen as yet another affront they must suffer.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 05:14

Different groups have different challenges.

So if white men are disenfranchised, what reason do you think black men have?

And why are so many black Americans living in poverty?

Feelslikewinter · 25/01/2025 08:04

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 05:14

Different groups have different challenges.

So if white men are disenfranchised, what reason do you think black men have?

And why are so many black Americans living in poverty?

I’ve been asking this question for several pages now - she won’t answer. She keeps obfuscating with dog whistle sidelines about trans school shooters, presumably in the hope that the MN favour will swing behind her, united by their hatred of gender ideology. I think what she doesn’t understand, being an American, is that we Brits are not as racist as Americans.

Also the notion of trans school shooters being a significant cohort is false: www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/majority-of-us-mass-shooters-are-cis-men-not-transgender-or-non-binary-people-idUSL1N363273/

I’ve repeatedly asked why white American boys are hugely over represented in the mass school shootings and she won’t respond.

Previously she has described the white boys who indiscriminately shoot children at school as ‘disenfranchised’, but when I suggested poverty and generational trauma played a part in black crime, she refused to countenance it.

I imagine she spends her weekends burning crosses and bleaching stains out of white hoods.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 08:16

It is interesting that apparently black people are just more violent for no reason, where as white people are pushed into it.

The whole rise of trans shooters thing is ridiculous.

I can't imagine anyone actually believing that to be true.

Tandora · 25/01/2025 09:12

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 08:16

It is interesting that apparently black people are just more violent for no reason, where as white people are pushed into it.

The whole rise of trans shooters thing is ridiculous.

I can't imagine anyone actually believing that to be true.

It is interesting that apparently black people are just more violent for no reason, where as white people are pushed into it.

It’s so awful how the election of trump has just emboldened people to say these types of things. Like now all of a sudden it’s ok just to be flagrantly racist? It’s sickening.

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:27

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 05:14

Different groups have different challenges.

So if white men are disenfranchised, what reason do you think black men have?

And why are so many black Americans living in poverty?

I said ‘alienated’ not disenfranchised. And idk the socioeconomic background of these types of school shooters. BUT I suspect they are middle class (in the American sense) and it’s not about socioeconomics.

OneAmberFinch · 25/01/2025 09:38

Quoting @RingoJuice [American servicemen] will be very demographically different to the Americans you know irl. They will be largely young men, drawn from lower socioeconomic classes...

I think this is something that's very important to understand in any migration discussion. Founder effects (I'm not limiting to this to genetics but also class, culture, norms, historical grievances) can be hugely significant.

"Country of birth" is a very broad descriptor. In the UK we understand that "white girls being raped" in the grooming gangs cases didn't mean Princess Charlotte.

I have a few friends in Silicon Valley who really struggled to understand the grooming gangs story. Their experience of "Pakistani men" is tech bros and entrepreneurs, with high average income, parents who push their kids ("you can choose to be either a doctor or an engineer!") etc. Maybe a little bit on the nepotistic side in business, and probably still living with their moms at 30, but not roving the streets in taxis dealing drugs and plying 13yos with alcohol and picking fights with skinheads.

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:38

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 08:16

It is interesting that apparently black people are just more violent for no reason, where as white people are pushed into it.

The whole rise of trans shooters thing is ridiculous.

I can't imagine anyone actually believing that to be true.

Trans-identified girls shooting up schools is, in fact, a very recent phenomenon and one that should be discussed. After all, girls very rarely do any school shootings, but we’ve now had at least two that I know of in just the last couple of years.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 09:38

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:27

I said ‘alienated’ not disenfranchised. And idk the socioeconomic background of these types of school shooters. BUT I suspect they are middle class (in the American sense) and it’s not about socioeconomics.

Can you explain more about this?

I don't want to misunderstand, but do you mean white shooters feel alienated and for black shooters it's related to poverty?

What do you think the reason is so many black people live in poverty?

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:39

Tandora · 25/01/2025 09:12

It is interesting that apparently black people are just more violent for no reason, where as white people are pushed into it.

It’s so awful how the election of trump has just emboldened people to say these types of things. Like now all of a sudden it’s ok just to be flagrantly racist? It’s sickening.

Everything I have said is backed up by data. And facts/data is not racist.

Tandora · 25/01/2025 13:50

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:39

Everything I have said is backed up by data. And facts/data is not racist.

You wrote this:

BUT … we need to figure out why black people, despite being only 13% of the American population, commits literally half the murders in the country!

Everybody who’s not racist knows why that is - it’s because of structural racism.
Asking that question with some kind of affected wide eyed innocence is flagrantly racist.

Feelslikewinter · 25/01/2025 16:33

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:39

Everything I have said is backed up by data. And facts/data is not racist.

It’s not the facts that are racist, it’s your interpretation of them. Despite plenty of scientifically robust research that shows the links between poverty and crime, you are suggesting that there is something in black DNA that makes them inherently more violent.

That is racist. HTH.

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 25/01/2025 18:39

RingoJuice · 25/01/2025 09:39

Everything I have said is backed up by data. And facts/data is not racist.

How are you interpreting these facts?

You have given a reason you believe white school shooters commit their crime.

Can you explain why you think black people become murderers?

RingoJuice · 26/01/2025 04:11

Tandora · 25/01/2025 13:50

You wrote this:

BUT … we need to figure out why black people, despite being only 13% of the American population, commits literally half the murders in the country!

Everybody who’s not racist knows why that is - it’s because of structural racism.
Asking that question with some kind of affected wide eyed innocence is flagrantly racist.

Edited

The explanation is not going to be as simple as that, anyone who pushes this explanation as a sole factor is doing so in bad faith.

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