Is it really that wrong to want for your country what Trump stands for?

[Anniedash]

I know that there are plenty of threads on Trump at the moment, but most of them are designed to rubbish the guy. That’s been done to death in the last 10 years.

He has still won two presidential elections so perhaps it’s time to move the discussion on a bit.Let’s put aside Trump’s personality, bluster, and whether he will deliver or not, for a second.

Is it really so wrong and bad to want to go for what his core message is? Why is the far right label used so liberally and will we ever see a government in this country which can tackle this madness -

A stop to or huge reduction in illegal immigration

Putting your own country first ahead of internationalism. It’s not a novel idea and certainly not a byword for automatically wanting war. In fact Trump’s argument is that war is bad

Saying no the climate hysteria. Climate change is real but climate emergency seems to be a made up concept to simply tax people to death to re distribute taxes to government lobbyists. Why should people accept being poorer in the name of this dangerous ideology

Putting a stop to woke madness. When did it become ok for state sponsored mutilation of children? Men pretending to be women in prison and hospitals getting access to women’s spaces. People being sanctioned do not using the correct pronouns

Driving the economy forward and putting a stop to endless freebies for those who have no intention of contributing to the system and refuse to work because they are sad.

The fact that someone as eccentric as Trump has to fly the flag for common sense ideas shows you just how batshit the political discourse has become.

The real concern is that we are allowing people into our country who come from difficult backgrounds. While first-generation immigrants may be grateful for escaping poverty and violence, second-generation immigrants often feel isolated, hopeless, and disconnected from our culture. This leads to anger and frustration, which can result in violence. These individuals struggle to succeed in the UK.

The parallels to US shootings are significant; many of those involved are young men who feel alienated from society. While the US has a larger wealth gap and fewer social safety nets, the experience of marginalised groups in the UK can be just as harsh. If we don't address this, the UK may face serious challenges ahead.

Of course the majoriry do not carry out violent crimes but why add this extra burden to our country.

Not let people in from violent places - but let you in? You who is from a place with 6 times the violence?

It would be good, in fact, for you to favor immigration from Europe and East Asia. Why don’t you try it?

You have displayed continual racism on this thread - that is antithetical to British values, so I’m in favour of deporting you

Oh no! They called me a racist!

I don’t care.

You should accept people from Haiti and SA because an immigration policy should be applied equally to all people, regardless of skin colour. If people from Haiti meet the criteria, they should be as welcomed as people from England

No, an immigration policy should benefit the people who live there. It is not a charity project.

There’s also the historic meddling of US foreign policy that destabilised many of the countries. Freedom for all, yeah?

Don’t blame me, I’m an isolationist.

Crime, particularly violent ones, increased during Trump’s first term. The murder rate you describe as ‘shooting up’ happened in 2020, with an average rise of around 30%

Ah yes, the Summer of Floyd.

It has been declining during Biden’s term

But still elevated when compared to those years prior to 2014, when BLM started to take off.

Your link between incarceration and reducing crime is not a simple one. Most reputable studies have shown incarceration to be only minimally responsible for reduced crime - other interventions being much more significant

Mass incarceration works. It worked in America in the 90s—2000s with Three Strikes. Again, I will point to El Salvador. Imprison violent people so they cannot harm others.

To be very clear about what your next sentence says - you seem to be implying that black populations are inherently more violent and commit more crimes? Are you wearing a pointy white hood

I gave you a real statistic. A statistic cannot be racist. But nice try.

Weird how when it’s white Americans disproportionately killing children in schools compared to their population levels

They don’t. I linked upthread to a study where the majority of school shooters were actually black, 60% of them.

you are unwilling to discuss the systemic reasons black Americans commit more crimes

I am open to that conversation.

I’m sure even you can understand how grinding poverty and inequality in a land that outwardly purports freedom and opportunity for all can lead to disenfranchisement and crime

Except it doesn’t. I wrote earlier how the Koreans and Vietnamese integrated very well. Their countries were utterly destroyed and many came with absolutely nothing. It didn’t lead them to commit crime.

Same could not be said for Hmong, btw.

Why is the black population over represented in crime statistics? if not poverty and trauma, the failed war on drugs and disenfranchisement from their own home, what is it?

I would like to know too.

Why do more white Americans go into schools and kill children (edit: in mass shooting events, you know, the ones where they kill randomly and with vigour) than any other race?

Well, we do know that white boys who feel alienated will kill indiscriminately. Many times they are on medication. Perhaps there is a link. We should look into that.

Black boys who do school shootings do so with a beef, they target specific people. I think the same pattern happens in Britain with knives tbh. It’s not indiscriminate. It’s targeted.

There has been a disproportionate amount of trans children shooting up schools in America (you’ll not hear it framed this way, but it’s absolutely the case), I think the hormonal drugs has something to do with it.

Are white American boys just more evil than other people

Is this what you think? Interesting.

This will never not be funny. They really, really want to deport the opinionated American woman. But they strangely don’t have this kind of energy for literal rapists.

There are networks of men, white men who sexually abuse and kill children in the UK. White men kill their children and families regularly. Hopefully someone will have the stats on that.

The men who kill their families do so because they have been slighted in some way. Men attack the weakest in our society when their ego has been terminally crushed - they have no power.

My point was that we have enough of our own men who have these problems why add to it with others?

I think the idea that one race is more violent than other is not true. Circumstances may push up the crime stats but the reasons are usually the same. Do not let men enter the country with no means to make their life a success. This is the only solution to the problem.

All the men coming across on boats how are they going to make good? What woman would want to couple up and start a family with them? They will want relationships, sex and a family but how will this happen? Aside from the fact there will be more men that woman to go around.

Male violence is real, they commit the vast majority of violent crime. And we should put that first and foremost in any strategy to combat crime.

But part of what you said here is totally false. I know WHY you said it. We all want to believe this, it seems nice and comforting. But … it’s just not true.

America is the only place (that I know of) where one group of women is more likely to murder someone than other groups of males. In my home country, black women are more likely to murder somebody than a male of white or East Asian descent.

Attached image are the FBI stats on this phenomenon (as it happens, I don’t think black women are more dangerous to me personally, as most crime is intraracial rather than interracial in nature)

@RingoJuice I'm not with you at all on many of your view points but I will add that I partly agree about black male youth from non wealthy backgrounds- not excusing it at all - but there seems to be an admiration and a pushing of the yo mother fucker culture - be it music, films etc - in music Theresa reason for this ( I work in that business) - it's seen as glamorous and being 'tough' and bling is associated with doing well- and being part of a gang gives a kind of 'look at me' kudos and admiration within their own sets that they aren't getting by other means-. When you are fed a diet of perfect people getting on nicely then some are more susceptible to thinking 'I want that' and by any means rather than think how do I get to that level- and if you make it very hard for people to better themselves or even get by by wholesome routes due to cost then plenty go for the easy option - drugs, thieving, pimping etc . It's not exclusive to black male youth- but my brother in law was senior in police in UK and says even here the figures for younger male black crime are out of all proportion relative to the population- working class male South Asian crime was high too relative to the demographic but in different ways- more fraud, dodgy practice etc- that isn't to say that a lot of crime isn't committed by pure white as snow British folk but if you look at the hard figures then it's fact that certain demographics figures are out of proportion to their percentage of population- probably the same is true in US.

Same is true here too of course but on a much lesser scale as easier to access higher ed, college - it has cost, but not to the same degree

It isn't racist to say these things, it's just facts and statistics and we need to get to the bottom of why it is - and I'm not a right winger by the way by any stretch -centre left, but don't agree with constantly calling everything racist - it's a concern - however I do think equal concern needs to be shown to the amount of loser white male shitheads we seem to have too these days. Unfortunately many right wing people bring everything and its mother down to immigration issues, without ever mentioning their changing culture, lack of well paid work in many areas and vast quantities of indigenous knuckle draggers too . One big thing to me in the US is very poor public transport between areas with a few exceptions like the north east corridor - meaning things we take for granted like commuting for better work are awkward and totally car reliant -

Maybe EA men do not have the same gang culture have a higher sense of self from their cultural background. Maybe when they interact with Westerners we don't see them as a threat due to their stature. Maybe they don't aggressively impose they culture on the settled country so experience less hostility - lots of possibilites.

@rewilded there is an element of that yes I agree- they are perceived as less threatening to an underlying culture .

Unfortunately many right wing people bring everything and its mother down to immigration issues

I appreciate your willingness to engage on this issue rather than shut it down. So I thank you for this, we need more original thinkers than people who take all their opinions from their political tribe. (I myself break hard from US conservatives due to my atheism and pro-choice stance).

Howrver, I do have to point out that we conservatives are not only hard on the immigration issue, we also tend to be hard on crime, all crime, which does cut across racial lines in various ways. Mass incarceration means mass incarceration, of mostly young males. I am fine with this, in pursuit of a safer environment.

It's a feedback loop. When EA interact with us and we don't feel threatened that results in a positve outcome for them
They are quiet and non gesticular. Sweeping generalisation but you get the point. The opposite could apply from people from other parts of the world.

I can understand the 'hard on crime' stance, @RingoJuice - but I do think that the problem needs to be tackled from the other side as well. Society needs to examine why people commit crimes, and why particular groups in society are overrepresented in the crime statistics, and then needs to see what can be done to prevent people from becoming criminals. Better education and prospects would have a big impact, I suspect - but I don't think this is the only thing that can work towards solving the problem of crime.

Most crime is intraracial in nature, however. The East Asian crime we see tend to be shootings of rival ‘gangs’ (they’ll come in and shoot up a rival’s restaurant, for example). So how they are treated by the dominant culture is, while not unrelated, seems to be a small part of the picture.

I think the more succinct explanation is that they simply retain the criminal offending patterns of their homeland.

Better education and prospects would have a big impact, I suspect - but I don't think this is the only thing that can work towards solving the problem of crime

I don’t disagree, I always think we can do better, and providing a pathway out is very important. But people act like you cannot pursue strategies at the same time, which I always found odd. I always suspected it is because lefties simply don’t like the idea of mass
incarceration full stop, regardless of how effective it is.

There is nothing wrong with looking at racial statistics in crime - but there is something massively wrong with what @RingoJuice is implying - that’s racism black people are more violent than other races.

The statistics show they commit more violent crimes - but don’t explain why.

I do not believe it is an inherent genetic or cultural thing - but that’s what RJ wants to suggest (because she’s racist).

Oh no! I’m being called racist for absolutely no reason!

Please.

We don’t even know why men as a group are way more violent and aggressive than women, do we? We don’t know why men cause 90%+ crime, do we?

But we aren’t prevented from speculation on that because it ‘might’ be misandrist (because it’s not).

But we could base an immigration policy on that, couldn’t we? Because we already know that young men are the riskiest demographic out there.

Goodness, how depressing.

Even for Trump, January 6 pardons are repugnant

https://www.thetimes.com/article/9eb025e1-5f55-4efe-b0f3-ece06d5ae43b?shareToken=444d88b40a6f29499f54d9d6585a82e4

This is a really good article, kind of how I feel about Trump.

@RingoJuice Yes, I agree with that but you said one group is more violent than the other? The propensity to carry out evil acts is equally shared amongst all people but atm we are providing all the ingredients to make our societies less safe. Why? Because we are not playing on an level playing field. These may be people fleeing violent countries at war they have fewer resources etc The are not genetically more violent. They just have a higher threshold atm moment due to where they have come from.

The Japanese carried out heinous crimes on prisoners of war etc. We just have mismatched circumstances atm. Keeping immigration down from these countries is important though I agree.

Then when they are settled and safe here there are other problems as I said in PP

The propensity to carry out evil acts is equally shared amongst all people

You cannot possibly believe,
for example, that women are just as likely to commit crimes as men, it’s only socialization that makes us nonviolent?

I don’t know WHY men are more violent, in virtually every society and culture that has ever existed. But they are. And things like immigration policy should take realities like this into account.

Yes sorry amongst men but not all men! Violent acts are also carried out against men too.

Interesting discussion.

I don't think we are obligated to have a completely non-discriminatory immigration system - I think completely the opposite, that we should be a lot more discriminatory. We currently hand out student visas to diploma mill business colleges, work visas to petrol station attendants, family visas to spouses of "citizens" who arrived here a few years ago and immediately moved into an ethnic enclave.

We should be discriminatory along several lines (including economic impact and likelihood of cultural assimilation) but crime is a major one and Ringo isn't wrong to focus on it.

I think we need to get better at discussing this too and it's interesting to read @RingoJuice take

@Feelslikewinter I do think we need to look at the 'why' and as I said I don't think it's a genetic thing - I do however think culture comes into it and there's a propensity amongst certain ethnenticities to engage more with a 'gang' culture and looking Billy big bollox in your own clan , not just with crime and violence but also making easy cash -which can be linked too. Other ethnenticities have more tendencies to non violent crime, fraud , romance crime etc - which is far less visible to the general public but is still crime- I did read that a lot of cyber crime does originate from the Far East and Phillipines etc , but it seems because they don't tend to hang around on street corners in the UK , often have money , then they get a free pass- the same was always true of Russia -

I do think however not enough is made of the large amount of indigenous shitheads that we also have in the mix - admittedly the numbers are less as a percentage of the demographic but large enough to be an absolute concern too - I don't agree with making crime and violence 'all' about immigrants - it's an issue all round and many of the posts from those with more conservative tendencies seem to imply it is all the fault of those coming over on boats etc - and therefore unfortunately come over as racist - the simple fact is the last government actively encouraged and offered visas for vast amounts of immigrants from non white countries plus the family simply because they had utterly underestimated the amount of EU citizens working in essential services who didn't opt to stay here postEU and also were no longer picking the UK as their choice destination even if they fulfilled the criteria- not all areNHS - it caused issues in warehousing, HGV drivers, factory's, building trade- the list is endless- we met so many working EU nationals in Copenhagen who opted out of the UK when they realised they had to jump through hoops to stay here and could get by elsewhere just with English and preferred the lifestyle too

The numbers were far more stable pre Brexit and it was far less a case of one worker plus family too in the period 2008 onwards - more single younger people