Is it really that wrong to want for your country what Trump stands for?

[Anniedash]

I know that there are plenty of threads on Trump at the moment, but most of them are designed to rubbish the guy. That’s been done to death in the last 10 years.

He has still won two presidential elections so perhaps it’s time to move the discussion on a bit.Let’s put aside Trump’s personality, bluster, and whether he will deliver or not, for a second.

Is it really so wrong and bad to want to go for what his core message is? Why is the far right label used so liberally and will we ever see a government in this country which can tackle this madness -

A stop to or huge reduction in illegal immigration

Putting your own country first ahead of internationalism. It’s not a novel idea and certainly not a byword for automatically wanting war. In fact Trump’s argument is that war is bad

Saying no the climate hysteria. Climate change is real but climate emergency seems to be a made up concept to simply tax people to death to re distribute taxes to government lobbyists. Why should people accept being poorer in the name of this dangerous ideology

Putting a stop to woke madness. When did it become ok for state sponsored mutilation of children? Men pretending to be women in prison and hospitals getting access to women’s spaces. People being sanctioned do not using the correct pronouns

Driving the economy forward and putting a stop to endless freebies for those who have no intention of contributing to the system and refuse to work because they are sad.

The fact that someone as eccentric as Trump has to fly the flag for common sense ideas shows you just how batshit the political discourse has become.

No one who thinks about the environment at all is getting stuff at Shein - or from PLT or Boohoo or any of the fast-fashion, wear once wardrobes.

Even with tariffs, goods produced in Asia or grown in South America will be cheaper than domestically-produced goods; it’s a fallacy that tariffs will mean more domestic production. Consumers will take most of the hit, workers will take the rest as wage stagnation or worsening conditions.

The money raised will be wasted by a government run by out of touch billionaires and headed by a piss-poor businessman.

Musk made his money buying other people’s IP and applying for govt grants. Trump inherited his and still fucked it up. They both now trade on celebrity - which is the true currency of modern day America. God bless?

Bad law like the new one that makes all Americans legally female?

Pot, kettle, black.

No point debating a racist. That way only madness lies.

So you are more annoyed about 6 people being pardoned on the basis of a hypothetical future crime, than 1500 actual, convicted rioters and insurrectionists being pardoned?

Yeah, that tracks with the article posted earlier about intelligence / education and voting preferences.

Actually, Rwanda is a safe country, legally. The Tories made it so.

Go back to where you came from; we don’t want your sort here.

@RingoJuice

Where are most school shooters’ parents from? 81% of K-12 school shooters are white. The Southport murdered should rot in hell but the colour of his skin isn’t why.

But Roe vs Wade was bad law according to nearly all legal scholars, regardless of whether you like the outcome.

It wasn’t bad law for women in the US. The outcome is what’s important.

Evidence?

I know that figure, iirc it’s from Statista. But you forgot the usual caveat that the casualty rate had to be over four deaths to qualify. So you should have said ‘mass’ shooting and that would have been correct

Using this narrow definition, East Asians are responsible for 44% of mass shootings at universities, despite being 6% of the population. You can see the problem here.

In fact, most school shootings have fewer deaths than that. And guess what? When you look at ALL school shootings, you’ll find that the reality is different.

An overwhelming majority of the 262 adolescent shooters were male, with an average age of 16. But unlike many of the school shootings that make headlines, Sathya said, nearly 60% of the shooters in the study were Black

Here’s a CNN article discussing this, which has a link to the original study btw

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/27/health/school-shootings-study/index.html

I wouldn’t have brought this up, but I see you have some misguided notions about school shooters and I’m happy to correct you on this.

It wasn’t bad law. It wasn’t a law at all, and that was the core problem. It should have been codified at the national level. And if they could not pass it at the national level, then it should have been legalized via state legislatures in the socially liberal states of that time. IMHO

I have 2 degrees.

Ah yes, my bad. You have so many school shootings you need to subcategorise them.

If you are too thick (and racist) to understand the socioeconomic reasons behind gang violence, which is what I assume you are referring to in the ‘not mass’ school shootings (fucking hell that this is even a thing) then I suggest you get more education.

Fact remains that of the mass school shootings that happen in educational settings for children, the vast majority are by white kids.

Seems skin colour or country of origin don’t matter when it comes to being a murderous nut job.

Proper ones, though?

Interestingly, when a friend did their year abroad in a US university, their grade was reduced when they returned home because US universities aren’t considered the same educational level as UK ones.

IIRC, their undergrad is about A-level, and post-grad is around our grad, give or take.

Possibly less of a difference in the Ivy League ones, mind. Imagine paying all that money for what you’d get free at sixth form college here.

BSc Psychology from University of Warwick 2:1
BA Business Administration from University of Coventry 2:1
PGCE University of Greenwich

Are they proper enough for you?

We are getting away from the larger, more uncomfortable point: second generation immigrants commit more violent crime than their immigrant parents. This has been found over and over again in many different countries.

You should have a serious, adult discussion over these implications. Instead you’ll talk about mental health and e-commerce machetes. Maybe force all children’s events to be on lock down, making it harder for people to even hold community events.

Source?

But taking this stat at face value, it doesn’t follow that this is because of the colour of their skin or country of origin.

Socioeconomic factors, racism, lack of belonging, having to deal with mindless bigots everyday…

Now the vast majority of immigrants deal with this and don’t end up committing heinous crimes - but why is it that you only explain the deeds of those who do as a race thing when it’s brown and black perpetrators?

Why do the white 81% of mass K-12 school shooting perps do it? Are they inherently violent because of their skin colour?

Do white Americans also commit more violent crimes than their parents? I’d imagine so…

@RingoJuice your second generation immigrant argument could also be the case that far more white British under 50s commit more crime than the over50s

Are you living in uk? Thats what we have a lot of currently in England isn’t it?!

most politicians so the same as Trump- he’s just blatant about it!

But taking this stat at face value, it doesn’t follow that this is because of the colour of their skin or country of origin

Observing a link doesn’t mean we have an explanation for it, no. But given the UK’s track record in problem-solving, perhaps you should understand that this is a burden on society that you cannot solve.

Socioeconomic factors, racism, lack of belonging, having to deal with mindless bigots everyday

Again, should you accept increased crime because you cannot solve these issues? It’s all well and good to say, ‘well this wouldn’t happen if they felt like they belonged!!!!’ but if you don’t have the ability to make that happen, then why accept the challenge?

Now the vast majority of immigrants deal with this and don’t end up committing heinous crimes - but why is it that you only explain the deeds of those who do as a race thing when it’s brown and black perpetrators?

It’s disproportionate. Like how we speak about male violence. Over 90% of violent crime is committed by men (probably more). We don’t — and should not — tiptoe around that fact.

Why do the white 81% of mass K-12 school shooting perps do it? Are they inherently violent because of their skin colour

We can and absolutely should have a conversation about why white males feel alienated from American society, yes. And I am willing (and eager!) to have that conversation. And here’s you, waving that statistic around, thinking it’s some sort of gotcha!

BUT … we need to figure out why black people, despite being only 13% of the American population, commits literally half the murders in the country!

ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43

Love a bit of data! - very interesting, is this the latest? I wonder if the UK would produce such a table?

Unfortunately the Biden administration didn’t want them to publish these figures publicly anymore. I’m sure they have them internally.

I would hope that under Trump they would start releasing this data again. We cannot begin to fix this problem if we don’t know the extent of it.

You are getting very muddled.

You seem to suggest that the UK’s only recourse to solving this (made up) issues of violent 2nd gen immigrants is to kick them out, yet think the US can fix its indigenous population who are so disturbed they go around killing children en masse at alarming frequency.

The UK is much, much better at dealing with violence, despite the chronically underfunded police v the overly militarised, multi agency US police.

There is a mass shooting event (4 or more people killed or injured) in the US more than once a day. Just shy of 500 in 2024. We have approx 10 a decade. Adjusted for population, that is still almost a non-existent issue.

Thankfully, we haven’t had a school shooting since we quickly banned most guns after Dunblane - with no bUt mA fREedOm nonsense from a right wing cabal of wannabe cowboys. Similarly no pushback on the new proposals for tightening up knife sales.

The UK is much, much better at dealing with violence, despite the chronically underfunded police v the overly militarised, multi agency US police.

We are ranked 142nd for homicide risk - a sixth of the USA per capita. Similar stats for violent crime.

You incarcerate more people than anywhere else in the world - 5 times as many as the UK, yet still don’t seem to have ‘solved’ the problems you face.

Look to your own house before criticising the one you are allowed to stay in.

An overwhelming reason black people are over represented in crime is because of socioeconomic factors - poverty breeds crime. The historic ghettoisation, the generational trauma of slavery, the segregation laws - this is all within the current generation’s lived experience - their grandparents and great grandparents faced these horrors.

The pointless war on drugs and ludicrous prohibition sensibilities of the US fuel an industry that offers (false) hope to many.

Yet you are willing to have the conversation about why white males feel isolated in the US, but not why black populations are over represented in crime stats.

Why is that?

You seem to suggest that the UK’s only recourse to solving this (made up) issues of violent 2nd gen immigrants is to kick them out

The better way is to not let people from violent places into your country. Obviously it is too late if they are already here (although you should be more willing to deport people who are not yet citizens if they step one iota out of line)

yet think the US can fix its indigenous population who are so disturbed they go around killing children en masse at alarming frequency

We have no choice. The white population and the foundational black population are both our problems to solve. So why take in more people from Haiti or South America, which are generally even more violent than America as a whole? Why should we do that?

The UK is much, much better at dealing with violence, despite the chronically underfunded police v the overly militarised, multi agency US police

Better than the US, sure. But what about in your own past?

You incarcerate more people than anywhere else in the world - 5 times as many as the UK, yet still don’t seem to have ‘solved’ the problems you face

Our prison population peaked in 2009, it’s been going down when we need to actually imprison more people. We ran the experiment, imprisoning fewer people made our murder rates shoot up. Now we can correct ourselves and start mass incarcerating criminals again.

Look to your own house before criticising the one you are allowed to stay in

Well it’s another part of why I voted Trump. This is what fixing the problem looks like: kicking out Democrats and taking crime seriously.

An overwhelming reason black people are over represented in crime is because of socioeconomic factors - poverty breeds crime

False. Poor East Asian countries do not have this problem. Poor Latinos and poor East Asians commit far fewer crimes. Poor East Asians commit very few crimes overall.

The historic ghettoisation, the generational trauma of slavery, the segregation laws - this is all within the current generation’s lived experience - their grandparents and great grandparents faced these horrors

This makes you rape and murder people? If you really believe this, it’s time to stop taking refugees from war torn countries. They just can’t help it!!!!

Yet you are willing to have the conversation about why white males feel isolated in the US, but not why black populations are overrepresented in crime stats

I’m very willing to have this conversation. But you won’t hear the words ‘poverty’ or ‘trauma’ from my end.

Not let people in from violent places - but let you in? You who is from a place with 6 times the violence?

You have displayed continual racism on this thread - that is antithetical to British values, so I’m in favour of deporting you. Off you fuck.

You should accept people from Haiti and SA because an immigration policy should be applied equally to all people, regardless of skin colour. If people from Haiti meet the criteria, they should be as welcomed as people from England. There’s also the historic meddling of US foreign policy that destabilised many of the countries. Freedom for all, yeah?

Crime, particularly violent ones, increased during Trump’s first term. The murder rate you describe as ‘shooting up’ happened in 2020, with an average rise of around 30%. It has been declining during Biden’s term.

Your link between incarceration and reducing crime is not a simple one. Most reputable studies have shown incarceration to be only minimally responsible for reduced crime - other interventions being much more significant.

To be very clear about what your next sentence says - you seem to be implying that black populations are inherently more violent and commit more crimes? Are you wearing a pointy white hood?

Weird how when it’s white Americans disproportionately killing children in schools compared to their population levels, it’s something to be ‘understood’, but you are unwilling to discuss the systemic reasons black Americans commit more crimes.

This makes you rape and murder people? If you really believe this, it’s time to stop taking refugees from war torn countries. They just can’t help it!!!!

I’m sure even you can understand how grinding poverty and inequality in a land that outwardly purports freedom and opportunity for all can lead to disenfranchisement and crime.

Being treated so poorly by your own country is a reason so many refugees flee their homelands.

I’m very willing to have this conversation. But you won’t hear the words ‘poverty’ or ‘trauma’ from my end.

so what is it, then? Why is the black population over represented in crime statistics? if not poverty and trauma, the failed war on drugs and disenfranchisement from their own home, what is it?

Why do more white Americans go into schools and kill children (edit: in mass shooting events, you know, the ones where they kill randomly and with vigour) than any other race? Are white American boys just more evil than other people?

The UK is much, much better at dealing with violence, despite the chronically underfunded police v the overly militarised, multi agency US police

Better than the US, sure. But what about in your own past?

I don’t understand your phrasing here. Do you mean how do we compare to our own past in terms of crime stats?

Crime is increasing overall (although in some areas eg Scotland, it has dropped significantly) - see aforementioned chronic underfunding of the police.

Active community policing with decent intelligence and beat bobbies is effective - but you can thank the Tories for getting rid of the resources to support this.

Our prison population is higher than ever - so perhaps incarceration isn’t the answer?

Recidivism is a huge issue - tackling the causes of crime (poverty, trauma, alienation, education amongst others) should be central to any policy aimed to reduce it.