Is it really that wrong to want for your country what Trump stands for?

[Anniedash]

I know that there are plenty of threads on Trump at the moment, but most of them are designed to rubbish the guy. That’s been done to death in the last 10 years.

He has still won two presidential elections so perhaps it’s time to move the discussion on a bit.Let’s put aside Trump’s personality, bluster, and whether he will deliver or not, for a second.

Is it really so wrong and bad to want to go for what his core message is? Why is the far right label used so liberally and will we ever see a government in this country which can tackle this madness -

A stop to or huge reduction in illegal immigration

Putting your own country first ahead of internationalism. It’s not a novel idea and certainly not a byword for automatically wanting war. In fact Trump’s argument is that war is bad

Saying no the climate hysteria. Climate change is real but climate emergency seems to be a made up concept to simply tax people to death to re distribute taxes to government lobbyists. Why should people accept being poorer in the name of this dangerous ideology

Putting a stop to woke madness. When did it become ok for state sponsored mutilation of children? Men pretending to be women in prison and hospitals getting access to women’s spaces. People being sanctioned do not using the correct pronouns

Driving the economy forward and putting a stop to endless freebies for those who have no intention of contributing to the system and refuse to work because they are sad.

The fact that someone as eccentric as Trump has to fly the flag for common sense ideas shows you just how batshit the political discourse has become.

A rapist? When was he found guilty in a criminal court of rape?

Also, the realisation that we were no longer part of the EU and what they stood for, unification with Europe, peace in Europe, since the end of the second WW, something our Grandparents fought for, were traumatised by or lost their lives seemed to be flippantly tossed aside, 100 times worse now and I personally wonder why my Grandfather bothered, when their efforts have been totally forgotten!

Where is the evidence for this though? I'm not particularly naive, nor do I accept online fear mongering with no rationale. Politicians say a lot of things and make a lot of promises to get votes, but most of those don't come to fruition or are massively watered down.

@SallyWD and @2andadog ,

You are very typical ‘everywheres’ who have no understanding of why anyone would vote for Trump or Farage other than stupidity.

Ironically people who want others to use analysis and critical thinking when it comes to things like Brexit are far happier to use their personal ‘lived experience’ when it comes to things like immigration and globalism. I suspect you both live in affluent areas where immigration is both a general positive and a personal positive,

I wonder how many liberal left wingers have spent any time in poor Islamic areas full of recent migrants unable to speak English and with very different values than accepted British values as taught in schools. The recent Musk use of the grooming scandal exposes this weakness in the ‘everywheres’. The lack of data of ethnicities in grooming gangs (only 34% of crimes had recorded ethnicities) exposes the Three Wise Monkeys approach of some of the establishment.

People are allowed to vote on their own lived experiences. If you just label this as stupid, you will get more and more populists in power. We are seeing it happen right now.

People who send their children to private schools in nice areas see no downside to immigration or globalisation, just the upsides: cheap builders, easy travel on holiday, studying abroad, lots of different restaurants to try out etc etc.

The reality is that we need immigration and we need global trade. But, like medicines, taking the right amount is good, an overdose can be a disaster.

And we need an honest conversation discussing pluses and minuses of political decisions, not a pretence that any policy will benefit everyone. Politics is about choices, and choices come with pluses and minuses. And, if a policy will be a net benefit but disadvantage sectors of the population, you had better either compensate these sectors or explain damn well why it will be advantageous long term.

The false Trumpian utopian vision is no different from the false Blairite utopia, the propaganda just appeals to different people!

Easy to measure - yes its success or failure is easily measured by how many people are sold to by those gangs. And numbers have gone up despite many headlines announcing new tactics

If they continue to what do you think that will do to Reform’s support?

The thing is Iraq was a massive issue for me. I'm a life long labour supporter and was elated when Blair got voted in. I went on the stop the war protest in 2003 when millions of us took to the streets and said "Not in my name". I felt so let down that Blair ignored the public resistance to this war and went ahead with it. It was always obvious that there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Yet he went to war to support George Bush and we killed thousands of innocent Iraqis in the process. I lost all faith in him then.
However I still voted Labour in 2005 simply because I agreed with other policies of theirs. My beliefs were still more in line with Labour policies than any other party. I knew the Tories would also have gone to war. Politics is complex and one single issue can put you off a party.
However I'd argue that those of us who were disgusted by the Iraq war are not the sort of people who would vote Conservative in response.

I am not left wing or liberal. I am pretty central in regards to political leanings. I also live in an area considered "deprived" according to economic surveys and with a heavy eastern european population. I do work in international trade and have travelled extensively on business however.

I have much experience in immigration, both positive and negative. I haven't said anywhere whether I see this as good or bad. What I have said is there is far too much "feeling based" voting over "fact based" voting.

Tories are supposed to be more right wing, yet they used immigration as a political football, with no action other than headline grabbing white elephant policies which wasted SO much tax payers money and achieved nothing. The current government who people like to thing of as "loony liberals" are actually exporting people successfully.

Reform were responsible for Brexit thinking which actually increased illegal immigration, badly effected the economy and trading.

Shouting about something and actually doing something about it are two very different things.

@AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize

They're eating the cats! They're eating the dogs! They're eating the pets! Of the people that live there!

Ha ha - you beat me to it. That guy is a musical genius

I used to vote labour, but I did switch to the conservatives because of Iraq. I haven't voted Labour since.

If the people of Port Talbot who voted to leave the EU, had used their "lived experience" in the EU Referendum, they would understand that the steel works were inextricably linked to the EU as a large amount of steel was shipped to the EU and they received a large amount of EU funding, resulting in a higher standard of leaving before it all closed down!

How's an 'honest conversation' relevent to the governance of society if you are arguing that it is all a propaganda machine and all parties are equal in partaking in that- surely by that reasoning, no poltical party is worthy of forming a government. Do you honestly believe this to be true, so all politicians lack integrity, all politics is propaganda?

You make entirely wrong assumptions about me. I know full well why people vote for Trump or Reform. I don't think it's stupidity but I do believe their proposed solutions are wrong, and they're focussing on the wrong issues.

Ah OK, but I'm pretty certain the Tories would have followed George Bush into that war too.

Yes, absolutely mind blowing how people decieve themselves!

The folks calling Trump a fascist, etc. are as guilty of hyperbole as he is himself!

Everyone is exaggerating to be heard.

I don't think it is at all, no. Clearly these policies appeal to people who voted for him

Maybe, we'll never know. It was a difficult time for military families.

@SemperIdem - I understand why the Welsh voted for Brexit. First, the EU did little for Wales that the Welsh wanted (looks like the Senedd is in the same mould re BLM, CRT etc, too). The EU also disfavours small nations that want independence because they are after pan-Europe (for capitalist reasons, not social ones). A final push factor was the treatment of Welsh fans at the European Cup in France, where the English were attacked by Russian fans (which was only reported when Victoria Beckham pointed it out) and the Welsh were lumped together with English fans and treated like rioters (they were singing - they're Welsh) by the French police, which showed the contempt that EU elites have for the hoi polloi (that's all of us on here bar a very few).
NB Being anti-EU was originally a Labour policy, the various incarnations of the Union being understood as pro-capitalist cartels.

@Goldenbear ,

‘How's an 'honest conversation' relevent to the governance of society if you are arguing that it is all a propaganda machine and all parties are equal in partaking in that- surely by that reasoning, no poltical party is worthy of forming a government. Do you honestly believe this to be true, so all politicians lack integrity, all politics is propaganda?’

I am saying that a lot of modern politics is a propaganda machine, not that it has to be.

I think a lot of politicians go into it with integrity and wanting to do good, but few get far staying that way. I think the vast majority of senior politicians have become self centred and dishonest over the years.

I don’t think that they are all the same and I don’t think that Starmer is as bad as Johnson but, equally, both his personal gift taking and a budget that hit the stretched middle hardest shows he is on his way to arrogance and cynicism.

Didn’t know Dems and Labour were sisters … which, just supports that Labour striving to interfere.

@Grammarnut

I don’t really think “treatment at FA Cup Final” was a good reason to vote for something that was going to very obviously result in devastating funding cuts.

Though I imagine those who voted leave, did. Look where that has got them.

Did you ignore the fact it has been happening for years? It is not exclusive to this election... also, Farage and Trump? Do Reform not get the same level of outrage? Or is it because they're not "liberal loonies" they get a green card to do what they want?

Sisters in regards to being slightly more liberal... as I suspect you know.

1. Women's rights is not actually the same thing as abortion rights, particularly abortion rights post 10/12 weeks, and I've been frustrated at the way it has seemingly been distilled into this one, single issue which is a moral point on which thoughtful people of both sexes have nuanced views.

2. Arguably there is a chain of events starting with Trump 1.0 Supreme Court appointments and ending with Dobbs which has been the single most productive action on abortion rights in the US in decades. Returning it to the states was the right thing to do in a divided country where the debate had stalled. Activists are free to focus efforts on individual states, which in turn now have to grapple with practicalities instead of hard-line edicts.

I don't think there's anyone in the world who thinks "Trump is the voice for women", that's a ludicrous thought, for obvious reasons already expressed in the thread. But voters clearly aren't buying the "Democrats = good on abortion = good for women" single-minded message anymore, and I think that's a good thing. Women have diverse views.

People are allowed to think different things.. maybe you should get a cup of tea and chill out.

On tbe other hand I am alarmed by climate deniers. Everyone is moaning about the price of olive oil and other foods but not seeing how the climate affects tbis.

Not ignoring facts ….
Im not aware of any facts about prior election interference by sister party - UK Labour Party, while leading UK.
please supply the facts & dates of prior interference and US response to it.

I have seen “facts” from 2024.

Green cards? What?

When someone says “sister” that’s a very close relationship. Ok if you are now backing away from sister!