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Grooming gangs being labelled as "Muslim grooming gangs"

1000 replies

Olga009933 · 19/01/2025 17:48

Why is religious heritage of child sex offenders only mentioned in headlines when the offenders are of south Asian and predominantly Muslim heritage.
Why not just label them as "grooming gangs" or "Asian grooming gangs" (if wanting to be be specific).
Just thinking and wondering about the thousands of white British and presumably non-Muslim sex offenders who make the news. How many of them are labelled "Christian sex attacker" or "Jewish pervert" etc? Why is the religious heritage of a sex offender only mentioned why the offenders are of Muslim background?
If mentioning religion for one particular demographic then surely its only fair to mention the religious heritage of them all?

OP posts:
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24
Pussycat22 · 21/01/2025 09:00

In the end it's nothing to do with race or religion. although these aspects may drive people's thinking .The people doing this, male or female are SEX OFFENDERS whether singularly or part of gangs.

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:01

GeneralPeter · 21/01/2025 08:42

You agree that the Crusades were motivated by religion. Does that mean you, personally, think the Bible justifies them (i.e. that true Christianity should include crusades)? I think those are two separate questions.

The issue here is that there are many interpretations of religions. The Quran's writings on sex with slaves are somewhat contradictory, but can certainly be used to justify sexual slavery if you are motivated to do so. And indeed, there are examples of sexual slavery in the world today that is explicitly justified on religious Islamic grounds. Boko Haram and Isis for example.

I think you can argue, quite persuasively, that the Quran doesn't in fact justify rape gangs. But I don't think you can say that because of that the men's religious beliefs were not relevant.

These were not men who were piously trying to do their religious duty. But, from the reporting I've read, including court reporting, it seems that their view of non-Muslim women as inferior was in fact in many cases part of that horrible mix. And there is plenty of support in the Quran, sadly, for treating non-Muslims harshly (and, certainly, plenty of support for more enlightened views too).

You must surely see how weak your arguments are. You're just throwing concepts around without making any effort to actually connect them to- or consider them against- what actually happened.

The crusades existed to spread Christianity. Evangelism being a central tenet of Christianity.

Putting aside the ancient context of the verses you rely upon, these girls were not "slaves" in any sense Islamically and you would not find anyone to argue otherwise. None of the men justified what they did by saying these girls are their slaves so Islamically it's fine. Sexual slavery justified by (a warped version of) Islam is more what ISIS tried to do.

Consuming or distributing alcohol and drugs is flatly a sin is Islam and this was a core element of the grooming here. I made this point above, but you ignored it.

No mosque has defended the act of plying female children and vulnerable young women with drugs and alcohol in order to sexually abuse them and pass them around. Nor would they. The act is indefensible in Islam and it has not been defended. While some family of the men have misguidedly (and awfully) tried to defend their male family members- none have said "it's fine Islamically"- instead they've gone with the girls were into it, etc (the same arguments of family world over who support abusive men).

Ultimately- these men were Muslim. They were also abusers and rapists and groomers. They were not such because they are Muslim.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:01

What they've done is to recognise this discrete phenomenon as a separate issue, and disappeared it into a list of gang related sexual violence.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:01

*to refuse to recognise

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:08

TENSsion · 21/01/2025 08:46

You can’t explain their evil by saying it was our fault in the first place and claim it to be neutral.

If you read all my PP you will see I am very clear about why this happened.

I am also not arguing that the hatred of us is right or moral. I'm not explaining their evil. These people are warped and can have any warped justification for what they do (eg non Muslims are fair game as they are dirty.). Why not another warped justification such as revenge? I haven't worded myself very well perhaps.

I'm just wondering if that's what the perpetrators might be thinking. That our children are not worth anything because they are British. If they are, then we are in for a lot more of this as more and more are coming in on the boats.

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:17

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:08

If you read all my PP you will see I am very clear about why this happened.

I am also not arguing that the hatred of us is right or moral. I'm not explaining their evil. These people are warped and can have any warped justification for what they do (eg non Muslims are fair game as they are dirty.). Why not another warped justification such as revenge? I haven't worded myself very well perhaps.

I'm just wondering if that's what the perpetrators might be thinking. That our children are not worth anything because they are British. If they are, then we are in for a lot more of this as more and more are coming in on the boats.

Considering 85% of grooming gangs are made up of white men, you are already getting a lot more of it.

What do you think the (huge majority of) white groomers justification is? Why do you think brown groomers have a totally different justification?

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:19

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:17

Considering 85% of grooming gangs are made up of white men, you are already getting a lot more of it.

What do you think the (huge majority of) white groomers justification is? Why do you think brown groomers have a totally different justification?

I'm not talking about white grooming gangs. This thread is about Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs.

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:20

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:19

I'm not talking about white grooming gangs. This thread is about Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs.

Why, though?

Do you think white young men in gangs and black young men in gangs have a different motivation for knife crime?

quantumbutterfly · 21/01/2025 09:21

StopStartStop · 19/01/2025 18:46

It is characteristic of this crime that the perpetrators come from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds. The prevalence of 'rape genocide' as a strategy in the war between Pakistan and Bangladesh meant the behaviour was absorbed into the culture (if it wasn't there before), and was brought to the UK when people immigrated. Islamic teachings (perhaps Qur'an, Hadith or tradition) allow a deep disrespect of white women ('the daughters of the unbelievers are permitted to you') and the social behaviour of western women is so different from what their culture tells them to expect of women that they believe - and teach each other- that white women and girls 'are brought up to it by their parents' (ie having sex with randoms) and 'want it' because 'all white girls are players'. White women are thought to be only worthy to be abused and to be urinated on. Their country is the 'pure land', the UK is 'stupid country'. Within their communities there is a teaching that you should cover up your neighbours sin, in the same way you would hope he would cover your failings. See the work of Raja Miah (Recusant Nine) on YouTube.

The mistake we made (and continue to make) was thinking that people from other parts of the world would share our (Western, European, UK) worldview. They don't.

There are men in rape gangs who are not Pakistani Muslim, but they take advantage of the structure of abuse that the Pakistani Muslims establish. They're just as guilty, but not as organised.

I taught for years. I have known British Pakistani Muslim boys who would never be involved in anything like this - and others. The only time I heard of a girl being rescued (having been captured by a man and held prisoner) was when girls from her school contacted the man and said they'd have the police round there if he didn't release her. I asked if they weren't afraid - no, neither the girls nor the boys in their class were afraid, they were going to do the right thing. Remembering these people gives me hope.

I started teaching in 1993 and heard of this behaviour shortly afterwards. Police and Social Services knew but would not intervene. We have recently heard that government gave instructions they were not to do so.

Thousands of our children have been sacrificed to keep... what? Politicians in their jobs? Peace on the streets? Is it real peace if your twelve year olds are being raped by four or more men at a time? Or even by one man. It should never happen. We let the abusers think we didn't care, or that we were too weak to put a stop to it.

Thousands of families have been damaged - victims families, perpetrators families, the youth who have been conditioned to think this is acceptable behaviour and the victims who have been conditioned to accept that this is all they are worth.

Pitifully, there are still white British, often middle-class people, who don't believe this has happened and is happening still, who think it is all exaggerated, who can't imagine it, who think one girl 'making it up' means they all were.

This is, cumulatively, the biggest crime the UK has ever known. It is an ongoing act of terror. Politicians, police, local councils and social services are all potentially complicit, and perhaps should be subject to legal action.

Stop focusing on language to try to distract from the truth of the situation.

This

Yolo12345 · 21/01/2025 09:21

@Olga009933 hi Olga, I don't know why you are so shocked by your perceived ignorance of people about Muslim identity etc. This is a minority faith and is very recently part of the UK.

Similarly many people in the UK are quite ignorant about the European history of religious persecutions, inquisitions, reformation, enlightenment, William of Orange, the Troubles, sectarianism etc, not to mention the Covenanters, skepticism etc

A thorough understanding would foster an understanding between faith and atheism.

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:21

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:20

Why, though?

Do you think white young men in gangs and black young men in gangs have a different motivation for knife crime?

Edited

We aren't taking about knife crime. The title of this thread is about grooming gangs (or rape gangs(

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:22

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:21

We aren't taking about knife crime. The title of this thread is about grooming gangs (or rape gangs(

Gosh, you really are trying hard to avoid my point, aren't you.

Hoppinggreen · 21/01/2025 09:24

idontthinksomate · 21/01/2025 06:48

I spent 5 years in a town with an extremely heavy Muslim community. I was followed in the streets on numerous occasions, I was hollered at out of car windows, I was even spat on by a young school boy because I dared to walk in front of him.
These were all Pakistani men, every time.
It was like living in another country and it certainly opened my eyes as a 19 year old.

I am not saying this didn't happen to you but I grew up and now live in an town where some areas have a very high proportion of muslims.
I have never experienced what you describe and the only verbal and sexual abuse I have ever suffered has been from white men

Upstartled · 21/01/2025 09:25

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:17

Considering 85% of grooming gangs are made up of white men, you are already getting a lot more of it.

What do you think the (huge majority of) white groomers justification is? Why do you think brown groomers have a totally different justification?

Different economic model, motivated by prejudice and misogyny, that the victims were ignored by the entire raft of safeguarding services for sentiments along the lines of those that MP Naz Shah was prepared to retweet - that those abused girls should shut their mouths for the good of diversity, and that people like you would minimise this particular form of child sexual exploitation.

Damnloginpopup · 21/01/2025 09:26

Pussycat22 · 21/01/2025 09:00

In the end it's nothing to do with race or religion. although these aspects may drive people's thinking .The people doing this, male or female are SEX OFFENDERS whether singularly or part of gangs.

Asian Pakistani Muslim Male Sex Offenders.

It's everything to do with the race, religion, nationality, and sex for these sex offenders and contempt for race, religion, nationality and sex of their specifically targeted victims.

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:26

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:22

Gosh, you really are trying hard to avoid my point, aren't you.

I know what you are trying to do. You are trying to muddy the waters by bringing in other types of crime committed by other types of people. I've explained upthread what my thoughts are on people who do this and how counter productive it is. If I was the real "far right" and wanted to wind people up a bit I would do exactly what you've been doing.

Stick to the issue in hand and tell me your point.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:30

Considering 85% of grooming gangs are made up of white men, you are already getting a lot more of it.

This is misrepresentation. It's a statement based on spurious framing that a "grooming gang" is any sexual abuse group with two or more participants. They also don't have the ethnicity figures as in the majority of cases they were not recorded. So it's also based on incomplete data. Plus, the U.K. is a majority white country anyway so it would need to be per capita.

But "white men are less dangerous than other men" isn't actually the argument (and I don't believe it's true to say that FWIW). It's a straw man.

So it's just whataboutery to shut down any conversation about the grooming gang problem of organised gangs of men from a particular culture preying on vulnerable girls in many towns and cities of the U.K., which has existed for decades, with many people in authority turning a blind eye for a variety of reasons, one of them being the perception of "racism".

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:31

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:26

I know what you are trying to do. You are trying to muddy the waters by bringing in other types of crime committed by other types of people. I've explained upthread what my thoughts are on people who do this and how counter productive it is. If I was the real "far right" and wanted to wind people up a bit I would do exactly what you've been doing.

Stick to the issue in hand and tell me your point.

My point is that it's illogical to assume that people's motivation for the same crime is radically different based on their race or religion.

I think that rapists and groomers have generally similar justifications despite their backgrounds. I think it's strange that so few here are prepared to consider this seriously.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:32

Gosh, you really are trying hard to avoid my point, aren't you.

You don't have one. It's whataboutery. It's a gotcha argument, not serious engagement.

Upstartled · 21/01/2025 09:33

They also don't have the ethnicity figures as in the majority of cases they were not recorded

This.

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:32

Gosh, you really are trying hard to avoid my point, aren't you.

You don't have one. It's whataboutery. It's a gotcha argument, not serious engagement.

It's not "whataboutery" in the slightest. As I said immediately above:

My point is that it's illogical to assume that people's motivation for the same crime is radically different based on their race or religion.

I think that rapists and groomers have generally similar justifications despite their backgrounds. I think it's strange that so few here are prepared to consider this seriously.

That's not whataboutery. Whataboutery would be "white rapists exist too so it's not that bad." You're failing to actually consider what I'm actually saying.

Feelingathomenow · 21/01/2025 09:35

Twiney2 · 21/01/2025 07:52

Slavery was a huge issue across the world many years ago. It still is now.

The verses regarding slavery cannot be applied anymore. The verses did not say that the sex was non consensual. You cannot gauge that from what you read. That is the danger of taking a verse out of context and googling it.

The Quran was not written by men at a certain time and place. Neither was the Bible or the Torah. The Bible and Torah as they are now have been corrupted by men. If you look at old versions of the Bible and the Torah over hundreds of years they are all different.

I’m sorry but your post contradicts itself. You say that the verses re slavery are no longer relevant (well actually they are as slavery still exists). You then go on to criticise other holy books and intimate that the Quran can’t be altered and it’s the exact words of a random god, one that after thousands of years being adamant the Israelites are his chosen people, suddenly gets bored of the Israelites and thinks I’ll pick a non Israelite/jew to channel my final message on this. The whole premise of Islam within the context of Abrahamic faith is ridiculous- I know they randomly claim their lineage down a different route, but it goes against gods plan he had been setting out for millenia. You have to admit it’s a bit of a stretch. Like someone rocking up claiming to be a long lost uncle trying to get his hands on the inheritance

so how do you interpret those passages

quantumbutterfly · 21/01/2025 09:37

TENSsion · 19/01/2025 19:12

I grew up in Rotherham. In my class in secondary school, there were 3 girls who were victims of this, two children who were products of their mums being victims of this in the 80’s and five children who had dad’s/ brothers arrested for this in the last few years.
There was a councillor who was the uncle of “mad Ash” who made sure he evaded justice for years and years. He’s also been accused of rape and being part of the grooming gangs but, so far, this has only got to the “alleged” stage. Two of his daughters, whom he is very close to, are both involved in working with victims of domestic abuse and grooming. They have access to all the information from their dad’s alleged victims.
The reach and extent of this is beyond comprehension if you don’t live there. The young Muslim men act with complete disregard because they know they are above the law. They deal drugs openly. They commit acts of violence with impunity. You cannot report them for anything because they will claim you started the interaction with a tirade of racist abuse and it will be you who ends up being arrested. Even the low level crimes such as how they will stop their cars in the middle of the road to have a chat with a friend driving in the opposite direction, bringing all the traffic to a complete standstill, can escalate into extreme repercussions for anyone reporting it. Everyone bites their tongues and keeps their mouths shut.
Think about the teacher in Batley. He showed an image of Mohammed as part of a lesson. He has been hounded out of a job and had credible and ongoing threats against his life made. Has anyone been arrested, charged and prosecuted for these death threats? No. Instead he’s encouraged to change his identity and his entire life. With the shrug of “what did he expect?” echoing around us.
Can you think of a single other instance of a teacher showing an educational picture would be met with accepted death threats?
I moved far away when I fell pregnant. I will not have my children growing up in that environment and thinking it’s normal. I will not have them called racist or liar when they speak out on it.

And this.

Hoppingabout · 21/01/2025 09:40

Yazzi · 21/01/2025 09:33

It's not "whataboutery" in the slightest. As I said immediately above:

My point is that it's illogical to assume that people's motivation for the same crime is radically different based on their race or religion.

I think that rapists and groomers have generally similar justifications despite their backgrounds. I think it's strange that so few here are prepared to consider this seriously.

That's not whataboutery. Whataboutery would be "white rapists exist too so it's not that bad." You're failing to actually consider what I'm actually saying.

Edited

I can't tell you the motivation of the Pakistani Muslim rapists.

We do know that they chose non Muslims. This could be so that they could rape them and that they feel they would not go to hell or be doing anything wrong as they are "dirty".

The children were also tortured. Rape as well as a sex crime is also a weapon of war and used to dominate degrade and punish. Boys were raped too.

This was on a national scale.

I don't know of anything that we can realistically compare it to in the UK to answer your question.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/01/2025 09:40

That's not whataboutery. Whataboutery would be "white rapists exist too so it's not that bad." You're failing to actually consider what I'm actually saying.

Repeatedly posting that spurious statement about "white grooming gangs" is whataboutery. If you won't accept that these "grooming gangs" are a specific phenomenon, people are going to have to use clearer terms referencing the cultural group of the perpetrators, aren't they?

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