To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

So schools have to be held to ransom by these children because they have a hard home life? That was trotted out to me 40 odd years ago when I was being bullied. It didn't stop the bullying and no doubt the girl in question grew up to be a foul little baggage because nobody ever held her to account. Being all didums over someone's home life won't help them as they grow up and I grew up with violence, neglect and abuse, but I didn't trash the school or the lives of classmates.

It's been going on for years - posts by adults today include someone whingeing about being told off, and condescending treatment by midwives, with all evidence pointing to the fact that she needs telling off and is acting immaturely. Also a parent wanting to sue because their "elite dancer" (primary age, ha!) child cut their hand at school doing something silly.
These children are already fully grown with children of their own. The thought of encountering them in real life is not one I relish (and I'm 100% certain the feeling is mutual).

Oh my! I feel for you. That's understandable about how lax the parents were. I know a few of those types of parents. A lot of them would rather be the child's friend and that's not helpful at all.

As I left, parents were pushing for full days even though child could not manage (and the other students in the class needed that day without too).

Sounds like an illegal exclusion of this child by your school. The parents are correct in expecting their child to be educated in accordance with the LA’s legal obligations. With good reason, those obligations also apply in relation to “naughty” children (who often have undiagnosed SEN).

your whole country is messed up because as you say, verbal and physical bullying is not dealt with, yet the home education community is going to be scapegoated for the failings of the system itself

Nah! Mumsnet is a skewed view.

Don't judge a country by Mumsnet! Please!!!!

Lack of discipline at home and in the schools
Lack of a decent role model
Lazy parenting
Entitlement

Nurturing and healthy in my mind also includes showing children their behaviour has consequences. I don’t think talking it through is enough. We can see this is not happening in some family units, whether that be middle class or not. Their children are therefore growing up not thinking of others, not respecting others and having very little regard for authority figures. I think we will have to kindly agree to disagree although I have appreciated your input too 🤝.

I'm sure support and nurturing may have some success over punishment in improving the behaviour of the individual. However punishment is not all about rehabilitation. It also acts as a deterrent and a means of acknowledging the victim. If we replace it with extra special attention there is no reason for others not to misbehave and it feels very unfair to the victim.

I am a 60's-70's kid and we were hit, terrorised, mocked and belittled at school and often at home too. Rarely praised and always told to "do better" I think it really damaged me and left me with a core belief that I am essentially worthless. I tried to do the reverse with my child, to encourage, to praise by naming the good things they did and school seemed be pretty much the same There were times I would shout and yell which makes me cringe when I remember it, I used to stop pocket money too. I am fascinated by gentle parenting, much of it does make emotional sense but conversley I wonder if it is a cop out at times. And what do you do if it doesn't work and they just carry on with "bad" or dangerous behaviour. One thing that shocks me about secondary schools is the use of isolation as punishment for what seems to be minor issues. I have a couple of friends with teenagers and I am quite surprised by the thing that kids get put in isolation for.

The point in my post is about how the school is supposed to deal with unruly behavior. However it is apparent that it goes hand in hand with parenting. You're able to punish at home such as raised voices, removing technology etc. But at school they can't do any of that so it's much more difficult.

When you say deterrent, that sounds like fear based compliance. My personal belief is that nurturing relationships and a safe environment go a very long way to building a solid moral foundation and intrinsic motivation to do the right thing. A proactive approach rather than a reactive one. I’m not sure what you mean by “extra special attention”.

'Research' - yeah, nah.

I grew up with authoritarian parents and I'm one myself (semi-autho, maybe).

No 'research' in sight, same as generations before who managed to grow up without all the 'positive reinforcement' and other yadda yadda bullshit.

You do as you're told. No, I'm not going to wang on about why wearing a coat in winter is important, why you need to eat your veggies, why you need to go to school, clean your room, etc. You just do, or else.

No, you're not the centre of the universe and you're not more important than me, your parent.

Your basic needs (safety, food, shelter, etc) will always be met, but the rest is a compromise. You wants don't come before mine, it's a discussion and compromise. Sometimes we do what I want, sometimes we do what you want.

No, I'm not a show pony and I won't entertain you every spare minute of the day, learn to occupy and entertain yourself.

You'll eat what you're given (within reason, I know what my child hates and I won't serve her that), no endless choices. Don't like the food - go without.

No, I'm not going to endlessly listen about your feelz, not every little shit that happens to you is important, not every little disappointment or failure is world-ending and need to be discussed and/or pathologized to death. Life's not fair, the sooner you learn to deal with it - the better.

Your room with be tidy at all times, just as mine is. If it's a mess, it means the stuff strewn about is not needed and it's going to the bin. You have chores at home and it's not 'helping', it's you living here, same as me.

I grew up like that (just harsher) and my child gets this version-lite. And no, I don't hate my parents, we get along. We don't have child knife crime, school-refuseniks, endless 'anxiety', 'depression' and whatever else, teens behaving and living like pigs, telling 'fuck off bitch' to the teachers, massive drug problem (yea, there are drugs, obviously, but not at the scale of UK), etc where I'm from. So I'll stick with my parenting and not the 'research'.

I am a TA and I openly voice my views on “all behaviour is communication” in my school. Every time it’s mentioned my response is the same “yep the children are communicating that they need firm boundaries and proper consequences which are lacking in school and in most cases at home too and we need to change that.”As you can imagine my opinion is not popular with SLT but shared by lots of other staff who are scared to say it. I get away with it because I am the most experienced support staff member they have and they are struggling to recruit. We are way too soft in primary school. Every year we hear about previous pupils who have been excluded within the first half term of secondary school for behaviour which would have got them no more than a don’t do that again and say sorry when they were in primary. I know of at least 3 children that I have taught in the last 2 years who have ended up in behavioural units. These children do not have SEN of any kind but have been allowed to get away with so much at home and at school previously that the behaviours are normalised and hard to stop so they end up excluded from mainstream education.

I think isolation a harsh punishment somit needs to fit the crime. But for talking in class once or twice or saying something inappropriate is just ridiculous. Thankfully they never had that when I was at school and it's not at my DCs either.

Yes everyone's looking for a simple solution where it's 100% right one way and 100% wrong the other. Not realistic that it's so straightforward.

That is what really shocked me. Even in the bad old days of my schooling, if you were talking in class, they just moved you away from your friend to another desk or asked you to stop. My friend's 15-year-old chats a lot and has been in isolation as a result. I couldn't believe it.

"all behaviour is communication" - but sometimes the child is communicating that they need an adult to take charge! I find this is said more often by people who are not on the front line of childcare.

Well not punishing is not working is it. i’ve always understood firm boundaries to be good for children. Consequences can be delivered with kindness. Leaving them without boundaries makes them even more unlikely to be able to function in society in the long term.

The fact is, though, that 'punishment' is a part of life. Actions have consequences. As an adult, the 'punishment' might not directly be being grounded, or the naughty step, or whatever, but the consequences of our actions can very much be 'punishment'. Being fired from your job because you were persistently late is a consequence. The 'punishments' for thatare financial shortage and difficulty finding more work, for example.

As adults, we understand consequences (generally, not always). Consequences are our punishment. Children, in a safe, warm, loving environment, don't yet understand the natural consequences that punish us in life, because most decent parents don't stand idly by and let their kids get into serious trouble.

Whilst parents are still at the very necessary stage of preventing their children being punished as a natural consequences of, say, running into a busy road, children need to be learning about consequences. They'll need to know this stuff. The artificial consequences our parents hand out shouldn't be violent, but they should be there, and yes,they should be 'punishment'.

Because in real life, the punishment for punching someone won't be a gentle chat. The punishment for not showing up and doing your work won't be getting to play in a nice room with Lego in it. As children we need to see consequences for our actions in a safe environment where we won't get seriously injured or ruin our lives, so we learn how our decisions have good and bad consequences. The rewards and punishments of real life.

Safe and nurturing relationships can absolutely include boundaries. They should include boundaries and consequences.

Nobody wants a return to the days is children being belted left, right and centre, but no consequences is setting children up for future failure.

I'm not a perfect parent by any means, but people's short sightedness is staggering sometimes. A parent friend I made at baby classes 20 odd years ago frequently cries at the state of her child's life. They're rude to her, don't have relationships that last, they can't hold down a job and all she ever says is "I don't know where it went wrong". Well I do - when the kid had no boundaries and no consequences ever!

Children don't always like boundaries and consequences, but they don't like school/education, vaccinations and not treatments either and we don't make them optional. The same should happen for manners, keeping your hands to yourself and the likes.

Often I've found the kids who play up at school have horrible home lives.

One old friend of my kids has a dad who doesn't like to hear anyone "whinge"

Which is ironic because he's the most angrily aggrieved "play the victim" whiney man baby I have literally ever met.

So the kids aren't allowed to say if they're feeling unwell, are in pain, cold, hungry, thirsty, had a bad dream, are having a hard time, disagree with something etc.

I'm not sure his wife has a voice at all, I've certainly never heard it, and their kids do all their communicating of their repressed feelings at school.