To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

[ABigBarofChocolate]

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

Well they'll get kicked out at some point, kids like that always do and have done for decades. Especially if they're likely to get terrible grades at GCSE because schools will do it to bring averages up.

Well yeah this, sometimes kids need someone to take them aside and kindly tell them to fucking pack it in. If the behaviour is due to neglect then the ineffective “all behaviour is communication” style is an extension of living in an unbounded world.

Clearly whatever people are doing is not workng so maybe a different approach is called for. Towards parents firstly and schools need to take a stiffer stance towards disruptive children.

I also think that the fact people have to work an ever increasing number of hours has a massive impact on this.

Because of work hours children are in an ever increasing number of clubs and out of school care where they have constant organised activities.

They don't know how to be bored. They don't ever get time to be bored long enough to bring out their own creativity.

It also impact theirs relationships with other children because they are constantly managed by adults. Not sorting out their own disagreements playing out. Which means they don't develop the skills that come with that.

Someone I know recently grounded their child. Except work reasons mean they still have to go to all their after school clubs. They also have to go to the grandparents on the Sunday and as other grandkids are there and something is planned they can't ask the grandparent to ground them. So basically the kid is grounded, for something really serious, on Saturday. The only actual day they could do something with their mum.

I remember about 25-30 years ago there was a super Heads initiative - putting high performing head teachers in charge of failing schools.

There was an interview on the local news with one of these heads who had come to a school in Plymouth. She had asked the pupils of the school to list the problems they most wanted solved, and top of the list was for disruptive fellow pupils to be properly dealt with so they could concentrate in their lessons.

In another programme at about that time, pupils from a failing school in Doncaster did an exchange with pupils from a private school. One boy said he had never been in lesson where there wasn't constant noise, chatter and low level disruption.

All that time ago and we still haven't found a way to cope with this. And a PP is right, making up for a seriously deprived childhood is a complex procedure, but it will just continue unless we tackle it properly, as these young people become poor parents themselves.

I cannot imagine anything more depressing than seeing 5 years olds coming to school still in nappies, unable to use cutlery at meals and some of them barely able to communicate verbally. It is a blight on a civilised society that the numbers of such children appear to be increasing.

Could you explain what you mean by parents don’t support you but are quick to complain? Do you mean like they complain but don’t reinforce eg a kid is behaving badly and the parents complain the school should fix the kid but don’t parent them effectively?

What a peculiar thing to say 😂

It's definitely OTT.

I'm always surprised how black and white people are on threads like this.

These issues are super complicated.

40 years ago, when I was at school, overall behaviour was better I'd say and perhaps that meant a lot of children were able to get a good education. BUT, looking back, I can think of at least a coupe of children who were constantly being punished for behaviour that I suspect was ND. I also know that many children were let down by the system because schools didn't see, identify or understand when behaviour may well have reflected abuse or neglect at home. Lots of children (particularly girls) lost out on opportunities because they didn't fit the mould (which, of course, was often "white middle class male".).

Today, sometimes behaviurs re worse. But it's complicated. We have a different society. Children are being bombarded with more expectations. Parents and teachers are more overwhelmed by workloads, financial worries, expectations. Strategies have changed. Some of this feeling of being overwhelmed is because life is just busier and more crowded (Jane Fonda likes to point out that when she was a child, the world had only 2 billion people....), sometimes its' because those children who WERE neglected /overlooked when I was at school are now being identified and support offered which means that theh support for the rest might not be at the same level.

NOne of this is an excuse or makes any of it acceptable, but I think that it's crazy to think we can just say, "parenting" or "you can't say no" without understanding the pros and cons of the way society, including education and schooling and communities, have evolved.

A deterrent is merely an understood negative consequence that people can be mindful of when deciding how to behave. You may call it FBC if you wish as I suppose you could say its 'fear' of the consequence that moderates the behaviour. However, you could also say its a desire to hold on to a privelege. I don't disagree with you about proactive approaches and how they might prevent the problem in some cases. However we are talking here about when a problem already exists and behaviour is unacceptable and harmful to others and a reactive approach is needed. By special attention I mean some of the reactions to problem behaviour described on the thread - centering the feelings of wrong doers, special environments with pool tables, shorter school days, rewards for tiny improvements while children who consistently behave well are overlooked.

Mother in law taught infant school for 40 years retiring in 2005. Many kids came to school filthy hungry & with only swear words as vocabulary. She worked her fingers to the bone to help these kids and their families with kindness understanding and boundaries. Most of the parents bought into the progress and were supportive. Those that didn't .. she would say ended up with young people in prison. She could pretty much predict this by the parents attitude to their child's learning and behaviour. Schools can only do so much ..

All behaviour is communication is rubbish. It puts the burden on the teacher to deliver wonderful lessons all the time. But that's impossible. Behaviour is not communication about relationships or boredom. And teaching is not all about relationships. We have gone wrong in listening to this idealistic BS and now have schools where children lose opportunities because of bad behaviour. Time to stop. Children need rules and structure.

A major part of feeling safe within your environment is having boundaries, this is especially essentially for young children. As is having the opportunity to feel and process different emotions, such as anger, happiness, excitement and nervousness. These feels are normal within every person's life and by learning to recognise and find ways to manage emotions we become more resilient.
Learning that hitting, pushing, shouting are not acceptable forms of communication, helps us to be more empathetic and nurturing to others. Boundaries with concequences and feelings are not a bad thing.

Yeah that's definitely an issue. Grounding kids isn't what it was for us. Sick of parents saying they will ground their kids for hitting mine but they're out playing 5 minutes later. Thankfully, my DC could always find something to entertain himself. A stick, a piece of fluff etc.

I went to a great secondary school, it had a fantastic reputation. It also had a very strict Rector, his word was law but he was fair and just. Every little rule had to be followed from uniform to behaviour, there were no exceptions. Of course some students tried but they always failed, our Rector and his deputies won always. Never once saw a fight in school, very little bullying. Very few classes were disrupted. Standard punishment was the belt by class teachers. If sent to the Rector or his deputies a conversation was had and you were reminded in no uncertain terms that you were in school to learn as was every other student and it wasn't acceptable for you to disrupt their education. Parents would be informed that your behaviour would not be tolerated and if it continued they were called in and told to sort you out or you would be expelled. Nobody was ever expelled.
Guess what ? That draconian school was loved , we had a fantastic time, hard work was celebrated and we were all made to feel that we could deliver our best. Nothing was too much trouble for the staff.
My year have a reunion once a decade, we are a mixed bunch of Lawyers, tv personalities, builders, teachers, hairdressers and holiday Reps. We all acknowledge that we were so lucky to have attended our school. Many of the lads admit they could have gone down the wrong path if it hadn't been for the strict and steady guidance they were given.
When our Rector died there were many books of Remembrance filled and even Westminster Cathedral wouldn't have been big enough to hold those that wanted to attend.
We were given clear boundaries and knew what was expected of us, we were the children and they were the adults and we knew it. Sadly that is something missing these days.

Agreed, the 3 children I know who have ended up in behavioural units had poor home lives and it was used as an excuse for their behaviour at school. We pandered to them and let them get away with it because “you know they have it hard enough at home and school is their safe space, we need to understand and nurture them.” Let them have nice time out with biscuits and hot chocolate with the head to have a chat about why they decided to batter Johnny with a tennis racket today. Let’s have a restorative conversation about how we can handle things differently next time and then apologise, only for the same thing to happen again the next day and then again next week, next month, next year. The secondary schools they went to didn’t put up with it and excluded them so they ended up in a behaviour unit. Maybe if we handled it better at primary it wouldn’t have got that far, who knows, all we do know is that the current system is not working because behaviour is getting worse not better.

No longer teaching thanks be. As teachers we were constantly undermined by an ineffective head who misinterpreted the latest discipline fads.
We'd haul the miscreants to her office and she'd have a little chat, then hold a talking circle. The bully would sit there smirking and saying all the right things while the victim(s) would listen and be resigned to having to suffer the same fate the following day/week whenever.
Unless she took a dislike to a child, then she'd be watching them for a chance to punish them.

My 8yo is desperate to leave her school due to the feral behaviour of some of the children in her class. It makes me so sad that she wants to learn but can’t cope with the disruption already.

One of the boys is destined for a prison sentence before adulthood which is tragic really when you think that of a child. Once you’ve been suspended multiple times from primary due to aggression and sanctions aren’t working, it doesn’t seem like there are going to be a huge amount of options open to him as there seems to be no funding for proper interventions.

A safe environment also means clear and firmly stated boundaries. Unfortunately boundaries seem to be out of fashion at the moment, despite the fact they are essential for society to function.

Ooh do we have a celebrity in our midst? Lol

Yes I agree that a lot tof children don't know that there is a line between adult and child. There is very little respect these days and it's because they are allowed to do anything they want without consequences. I dread to think what the future will be like with all of these kids in charge.

Absolutely! But the OP was discussing punishment, and I was responding to that.

You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days.

they used to say this in the 1990s too. Nothing’s changed. Some parents are ineffective and shite. And so it continues.

Yes, boundaries are definitely a key part of a safe and nurturing environment. However the discussion was about punishment.

Anyone signed up to LBC? Vanessa Feltz Catch Up Jan.4th, interviewing a doctor on why children are not potty trained when starting school, but it needs an account.

Basically mums are too scared to potty train and read bedtime stories in case they fail, so don't even try. Apparently what's needed is a whole group of women to help.