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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

476 replies

ABigBarofChocolate · 09/01/2025 13:49

I've been working with kids for a long time and through the years, forms of "punishment" have changed so much.

You hear the whole " when I was at school we got the belt/ruler/??" I don't condone that all.

When I was at school, you got a punishment exercise (writing the same sentence 100 times) or you just didn't get any rewards at the end of the week because your merit chart wasn't full. Very badly behaved kids would either get sent to the HT office or be suspended with work to do.

My DCs school are having a hard time just now. You're basically not allowed to say No to kids these days. It's all positive reinforcement. Don't punish, distract. Etc.

So when the same 2 kids are physically hurting other people's kids or are giving others verbal abuse daily...how are they supposed to handle it?

Did we go wrong when we were told by education big wigs that we were no longer able to make a child feel bad for what they've done to another? No more naughty corner or punishment exercises or being sent out of class or raised voices.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
VivaVivaa · 11/01/2025 21:02

NattyHazelFinch · 09/01/2025 18:12

Yes we had a child that parent chased private diagnosis, child of course was given the diagnosis. Child then gets permission to wear trainers, run laps when needs ‘movement break’ etc etc and actually behaviour got so much worse- sadly at the detriment of the other 32 pupils

In my experience, the parents ‘chasing private diagnoses’ are the ones whose children are impeccably behaved at school, but then absolutely fall apart at home. The schools don’t believe there is any problem so refuse to support NHS assessment. The majority of parents I’ve come across forking out thousands for private ND assessment are excellent parents at their wits end, not chancers looking for a way to justify their poorly parented kid’s behaviour.

TempestTost · 11/01/2025 21:14

CherryBlossom321 · 10/01/2025 08:10

There’s a distinction between consequence and punishment, and how those things are applied. There’s also a spectrum of what individuals find shaming and frightening. I like to look at the bigger picture 🙂

But you aren't looking at the bigger picture, you are assuming a very narrow idea about what counts as "punishment" and telling everyone that their reasonable ideas about punishment are actually "consequences."

Which isn't really even relevant because it's precisely what people are saying - children need consequences for their bad actions because right now there aren't any.

You aren't seeing the forest for the trees here.

TempestTost · 11/01/2025 21:20

fitzwilliamdarcy · 10/01/2025 14:08

Now the attitude is childcare should support the parents who have to actually teach skills like toileting shoes and cutlery. When childcare has to step up and actually teach these things there is often judgements on the parent. Drives me mad. If a parent works full time and I have that child more waking hours than them how is such an attitude acceptable

People who work so much that neither parent has time to teach their kids how to tie their shoes, read a book, go to the toilet, or use cutlery, have no business having kids. They should be judged for that. It is not the job of childcare workers to be parents. Support parents, yes, but not replace them.

I mean sure, I think it's a problem.

But realistically, plenty of young kids are in childcare 8 hours a day five days a week, and may only be awake a few hours more in the evening. A three year old up at 6:30 should be going to bed at about 7.

When is this stuff supposed to happen?

Dismaljanuary · 11/01/2025 21:48

@NattyHazelFinch all I've seen is ignorance and teaches not wanting to understand or let go of pupils they clash with.

A lot of intense training is needed for current teachers and new recruits need it embedded in

NattyHazelFinch · 11/01/2025 21:49

Dismaljanuary · 11/01/2025 21:48

@NattyHazelFinch all I've seen is ignorance and teaches not wanting to understand or let go of pupils they clash with.

A lot of intense training is needed for current teachers and new recruits need it embedded in

Sorry, in what way?

Dismaljanuary · 11/01/2025 21:52

@TempestTost @fitzwilliamdarcy

We have slept walked into institutionalised childcare.

Without thought what's actually best for the child

People don't want to hear it but I'd advise anyone who is choosing to have dc, go and work in a nursery go and hang out at places nannies and child minders are if you have the privilege to choose to have a child do this first!!

And then make a properly informed decision, do I really want a child do I really want child care

Dismaljanuary · 11/01/2025 21:58

@Twirlywurly2 sorry the boy you had to write reports about had been prescribed medication by professionals and is now calmer but he's still irritating to you n

You have no compassion for this child who needed understanding help and a diagnoses and actual medicine??

Dismaljanuary · 11/01/2025 21:59

@RavenhairedRachel you sound like some teacher I work with.
Absolutely appalling and hopefully one day yesterdays news and people will look back at how awful education has been and outdated.

TempestTost · 11/01/2025 22:10

Karmacode · 11/01/2025 18:46

This is absolute bullshit. Do men need to realise they can either have a career or be fathers before 30? Now all the problems with society are being blamed on either woman either having kids too late or working. Have you any evidence to back this up?

Large sections of the work force would literally collapse without working mothers. I work in social work, most if my colleagues are working mums. I am imagine with other professions such as teaching and nursing where there are a large percentage of the workforce are women, that there is a significant number of working mums. The very people you are trying to demonise are in fact the very people out there safeguarding and teaching and looking after the next generation.

Women have always worked. Children have always been brought up with a wide range caregivers going back to when we lived in tribes. In the span of history, the concept of a stay at home is a relatively new one.

Many counties like Scandinavian ones have used daycare for decades and don't have the problems we do. It's so short sighted to think children going to nursery and mums working is the sole cause of the problems faced now by children. I've seen no research or evidence to support thus In fact poverty is one of the biggest adversities a child can face in life but of course to some people the solution is to put women and children at risk of poverty by insisting women stay at home.

Edited

I mean - whether or not you think something is "fair" is pretty irrelevant to whether or not it is true.

Nor is it relevant what that would mean to how we've structured our economy.

None of this tells us that making long hours of institutionalized childcare normative from young ages isn't a problem for the children. At best, it might tell us that it's a sacrifice we should make for GDP, or a particular vision of women's equality.

As for childcare in other places, it would certainly be worthwhile to have a closer look at how other countries manage it - in part I think they manage it by having mums stay home with kids longer and having shorter work days. The historical point is not valid, in my view, historically most kids have worked with parents from a young age and been cared for by extended family when that's not possible - which is nothing like institutionalized care from a paid worker. And sadly - there was a lot of neglect, where that it wasn't possible.

CherryBlossom321 · 11/01/2025 22:26

TempestTost · 11/01/2025 21:14

But you aren't looking at the bigger picture, you are assuming a very narrow idea about what counts as "punishment" and telling everyone that their reasonable ideas about punishment are actually "consequences."

Which isn't really even relevant because it's precisely what people are saying - children need consequences for their bad actions because right now there aren't any.

You aren't seeing the forest for the trees here.

The OP specifically mentioned punishment, which is why I addressed the difference. Punishment is actually a broad spectrum and I disagree that I’m “assuming a narrow idea”. I also disagree that there are no consequences for misbehaviour as a generalisation. In many cases, there are. Happy to disagree, and confidently trust in the current research conducted by academics about what the most impacting factors are on behaviour. None of which are punishment 🙂

Rachmorr57 · 11/01/2025 22:37

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

BlueSilverCats · 11/01/2025 23:17

@TempestTost the vast majority of kids with issues at my school have a SAHP and always did. Of course, it's a lot more complex than that, but it doesn't quite match your theory.

I accept though that it's anecdata and a very small sample size.

iwentjasonwaterfalls · 12/01/2025 07:44

The other issue with this whole "people just don't punish their kids anymore" is that it doesn't reflect real life experience. The most badly behaved kids I've ever taught are the children of the ones who sit at parents evening and say "just wait till you get home"; the ones who talk openly about being screamed at by their parents if they get another detention/isolation.

I know parents (not in a professional capacity) who admit to smacking their kids and are confused as to why their behaviour is still so awful. They take away electronics and the behaviour escalated.

I also know a lot of gentle parents (who do it correctly; not permissive) and their children are without exception kinder, calmer and more polite than the children shouted at, smacked and given conventional punishments.

There's a lot of talk of there being no difference between consequences and punishments - that's a blanket statement; perhaps there isn't for you, but for my parenting style, there is.

Say my daughter didn't tidy her room when asked because she was watching TV, for example.

I could smack her or ground her or take away all her electronics or go through her room with a bag and bin everything on the floor (or threaten to do so). Those are punishments. They're disproportionate to the actions, and if they succeed in changing the behaviour, it's through fear - "I shouldn't do this because I'll be punished".

Instead, I talk to her about why this has happened - "because I got distracted by TV" - why she wants it to change - "because there's no room for me to play or have friends over" - and ask, in order for you to tidy your room, what do you think you need. She tells me that the TV is too much of a distraction and she wants some time away from it. She sets the length of time and sticks to it. She might ask for help with her room too, if it feels overwhelming or she doesn't know where to start, so I help her break it down into smaller tasks. She sees the natural consequences of her behaviour, and imposes a logical consequence that will help her fix the issue.

There's no fear, no actions being taken out of anger. She's learning self regulation, emotional literacy and awareness of her own actions and the reasons behind them. She's just started watching TV again after about 3 weeks because she felt like she wasn't focusing on her painting and didn't want to mess it up, and yesterday she felt like she was ready to watch TV again.

Theoretically, she should be the worst behaved child in a room because we don't punish her or shout at her... but she isn't.

Ashwapanda · 12/01/2025 08:37

There's a massive elephant in the room here (haven't rtft fully so sorry if someone has mentioned it) but all of these children lived through the pandemic, which hugely impacted them meeting peers, being socialised and being parented. Little ones didn't go to groups and were looked after by frightened parents trying to work at the same time as looking after them, older ones were shoved on electronics often unmonitored to do school work. The kids are still recovering from that experience

mollyfolk · 12/01/2025 10:16

As far as I can see (as a parent) the kids kicking off in school either have SEN or come from disadvantaged backgrounds.

In our case the school is able to deal with - the small number of kids who can't cope- it and behaviour overall is good.

I used to work with young offenders - years ago - I never met one who came from a background where they were treated too gently! I can't think of any of them that had a "normal" childhood at all to be honest. They were all neglected and suffered childhood traumas like living with a parent who has a serious mental health problem. Many had been seriously abused or had viewed multiple acts of violence. Many with addiction issues in particular seemed to have undiagnosed ADHD. All these would have been very disruptive at school.

I'm not sure the answer is punishment for these children. But I don't think all schools have the resources to deal with the numbers they are dealing with.

Goldbar · 12/01/2025 10:21

@mollyfolk . I agree with you - while I'm not a fan of some of what passes for 'gentle parenting' and I agree that children nowadays can be poorly prepared for some aspects of later life (although life and the workplace has changed so much that I think the problem is exaggerated), I don't think it's the children who are loved, kept safe, nurtured and cared for, whether by gentle parents or parents who parent more firmly, who are causing most of the issues in schools. It's those whose needs aren't being met or who are neglected, abused or traumatised.

MargaretThursday · 12/01/2025 12:13

@iwentjasonwaterfalls
That method would work for some, but others it wouldn't - as with all discipline methods.
That would probably work okay for dd1, but definitely not dd2 and probably not ds. My three need different methods of discipline for the best.

It's easy to discipline a child who is wanting to work with you. If she just turned round to you and said "I don't care about tidying my room - I'm going out." then that's far harder. A child who will discuss with you and then act is easy to deal with. The child who acts out when challenged is far harder.

Years back when my children were small I read a parenting book by someone that was highly rated. All I came away with was the realisation that his children were easy going and he didn't really have any experience of a child who really was rebelling or didn't answer to his methods.
Two particular things I remember:
He said that he always focused on the positive. So if he couldn't say anything positive about the tidiness of their room he said "your ceiling is tidy", so they felt he wasn't being negative. I tried that.
Dd1 said "Mum, my room isn't that bad. Don't be so sarcastic."
DD2 wrote "This ceiling is not tidy" on her ceiling after I'd left.
Ds pointed out that his ceiling wasn't really that tidy as he had his model aircraft hanging from it, and there was a chunk of plaster missing in the corner, so please could we redecorate his bedroom.
Lose all round really.

But the second one, which I think was quite similar to your example, was one of his dc had left something on the school bus. Let's say their PE bag. They didn't say anything because they were scared/embarrassed/whatever. If they'd said something he'd have leapt in the car and gone after the bus and picked it up at a later stop. As they didn't they had to pay an admin cost of about £20 to get lost property back.
So he decided that they would pay for that £20 with chores or something, can't remember the details. He then said he went to his dc and explained that and asked them if it was a fair punishment - and they agreed. So he patted himself on the back for giving a fair punishment, and said how important it was the child saw it was a fair punishment.

Now there were a few things that I felt.
Firstly, why didn't they tell straight away? My dc would have told me as soon as they'd realised (and have in similar situations). So actually there's more to the situation than he admitted.
Secondly, I can say with absolute certainty that if my Dad/Mum had come and asked if a punishment was fair, then I would have said "yes". Not because I was scared of him, but because that was the simplest and quickest way of finishing the matter. I might have moaned to my friends/sister, but to Dad/Mum, I would have agreed to it. So agreement doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Lastly: I can say with equal certainty that my dbro would have said it wasn't fair. Anything other than no response, he would have raged and said it wasn't fair. (not sure what my sister would have done)

But the interesting thing was that he gave no idea of what to do in that situation. Do you lessen the punishment until they agree it's fair? In which case my brother would probably never got punished. Or do you stand firm and say "I think it's fair" in which case asking them is pointless, and, if they do genuinely think it's unfair, will add to their sense of grievance.

My point is here that one size doesn't fit all for discipline. If you have a child who is easy to deal with, then you may think you have the answers. There isn't an answer.
And that's part of the problem in schools. There isn't one answer for all children, but with 30 children in a class they can't tailor the response to the crime, nor should they be expected to. Nor do they have time to sit down and discuss it every time.

I also find the idea that children will choose the right way if they're explained what is best for them odd. I mean, I've just drank a can of coke zero and ate 4 chocolate digestive biscuits for breakfast. Yep, I know that isn't healthy. I know a slice of toast, or cereal would be better. But I still chose the unhealthy option.
So why would every child always choose the right thing to do if you explained it right? I certainly don't. Do you?

Children deserve the right to feel safe at school. Whether that's safe from abuse at home, or safe from abuse at school.
A happy child learns better.

When ds was at home doing online learning during covid, his lessons were 10 minutes of teacher, then set work to do for the rest of the hour. He did far better because they got that 10 minute teaching then got on with work on their own (with capacity to ask questions if necessary) even though he'd normally completed the work in 20 minutes, so only half the working time. Normally the hour would be taken up with classroom management, distractions, and people not having their pens etc.
And the children got a really good working relationship too because they were able to message on the chat and answer each others' questions so they were focusing on helping each other and building each other up.
Just think how much better children could learn if they could focus on the learning. And those who need extra support could have it in a calm environment. That is what we should be aiming for. Not this half-hearted arrangement where the extra support doesn't happen and the classroom is chaotic. That doesn't help anyone, least of all the vulnerable children who need calm and support most of all.

But we won't ever see that. Because funding.

ABigBarofChocolate · 12/01/2025 16:39

MargaretThursday · 12/01/2025 12:13

@iwentjasonwaterfalls
That method would work for some, but others it wouldn't - as with all discipline methods.
That would probably work okay for dd1, but definitely not dd2 and probably not ds. My three need different methods of discipline for the best.

It's easy to discipline a child who is wanting to work with you. If she just turned round to you and said "I don't care about tidying my room - I'm going out." then that's far harder. A child who will discuss with you and then act is easy to deal with. The child who acts out when challenged is far harder.

Years back when my children were small I read a parenting book by someone that was highly rated. All I came away with was the realisation that his children were easy going and he didn't really have any experience of a child who really was rebelling or didn't answer to his methods.
Two particular things I remember:
He said that he always focused on the positive. So if he couldn't say anything positive about the tidiness of their room he said "your ceiling is tidy", so they felt he wasn't being negative. I tried that.
Dd1 said "Mum, my room isn't that bad. Don't be so sarcastic."
DD2 wrote "This ceiling is not tidy" on her ceiling after I'd left.
Ds pointed out that his ceiling wasn't really that tidy as he had his model aircraft hanging from it, and there was a chunk of plaster missing in the corner, so please could we redecorate his bedroom.
Lose all round really.

But the second one, which I think was quite similar to your example, was one of his dc had left something on the school bus. Let's say their PE bag. They didn't say anything because they were scared/embarrassed/whatever. If they'd said something he'd have leapt in the car and gone after the bus and picked it up at a later stop. As they didn't they had to pay an admin cost of about £20 to get lost property back.
So he decided that they would pay for that £20 with chores or something, can't remember the details. He then said he went to his dc and explained that and asked them if it was a fair punishment - and they agreed. So he patted himself on the back for giving a fair punishment, and said how important it was the child saw it was a fair punishment.

Now there were a few things that I felt.
Firstly, why didn't they tell straight away? My dc would have told me as soon as they'd realised (and have in similar situations). So actually there's more to the situation than he admitted.
Secondly, I can say with absolute certainty that if my Dad/Mum had come and asked if a punishment was fair, then I would have said "yes". Not because I was scared of him, but because that was the simplest and quickest way of finishing the matter. I might have moaned to my friends/sister, but to Dad/Mum, I would have agreed to it. So agreement doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Lastly: I can say with equal certainty that my dbro would have said it wasn't fair. Anything other than no response, he would have raged and said it wasn't fair. (not sure what my sister would have done)

But the interesting thing was that he gave no idea of what to do in that situation. Do you lessen the punishment until they agree it's fair? In which case my brother would probably never got punished. Or do you stand firm and say "I think it's fair" in which case asking them is pointless, and, if they do genuinely think it's unfair, will add to their sense of grievance.

My point is here that one size doesn't fit all for discipline. If you have a child who is easy to deal with, then you may think you have the answers. There isn't an answer.
And that's part of the problem in schools. There isn't one answer for all children, but with 30 children in a class they can't tailor the response to the crime, nor should they be expected to. Nor do they have time to sit down and discuss it every time.

I also find the idea that children will choose the right way if they're explained what is best for them odd. I mean, I've just drank a can of coke zero and ate 4 chocolate digestive biscuits for breakfast. Yep, I know that isn't healthy. I know a slice of toast, or cereal would be better. But I still chose the unhealthy option.
So why would every child always choose the right thing to do if you explained it right? I certainly don't. Do you?

Children deserve the right to feel safe at school. Whether that's safe from abuse at home, or safe from abuse at school.
A happy child learns better.

When ds was at home doing online learning during covid, his lessons were 10 minutes of teacher, then set work to do for the rest of the hour. He did far better because they got that 10 minute teaching then got on with work on their own (with capacity to ask questions if necessary) even though he'd normally completed the work in 20 minutes, so only half the working time. Normally the hour would be taken up with classroom management, distractions, and people not having their pens etc.
And the children got a really good working relationship too because they were able to message on the chat and answer each others' questions so they were focusing on helping each other and building each other up.
Just think how much better children could learn if they could focus on the learning. And those who need extra support could have it in a calm environment. That is what we should be aiming for. Not this half-hearted arrangement where the extra support doesn't happen and the classroom is chaotic. That doesn't help anyone, least of all the vulnerable children who need calm and support most of all.

But we won't ever see that. Because funding.

Nailed it!

OP posts:
Copernicus321 · 12/01/2025 17:15

I think the problem is that kids don't do chores these days. I grew up spending 1-2 hours a day doing chores. From an age of 9 or 10 we cleaned the house, changed the bedding, put clothes on the drier, packed them away in drawers, brought in the wood, cleaned out the fire, decorated, gardened, weeded. From the age of 12 my parents would expect each of us (3 of us) to prepare 1 evening meal a week. I could go on but won't bore you. Result, we grew up, we learned discipline, we understood that in life things need to get done whether you are an adult or a child. A lot of things in life just aren't a matter of negotiation, they just need to get done. We brought up our children to do the same. End result, we trusted them to be sensible and gave them great freedom to do much more than their peers were ever allowed to do. In the meantime, as children they were really pleasant, fun and co-operative.

BlueSilverCats · 12/01/2025 17:20

Copernicus321 · 12/01/2025 17:15

I think the problem is that kids don't do chores these days. I grew up spending 1-2 hours a day doing chores. From an age of 9 or 10 we cleaned the house, changed the bedding, put clothes on the drier, packed them away in drawers, brought in the wood, cleaned out the fire, decorated, gardened, weeded. From the age of 12 my parents would expect each of us (3 of us) to prepare 1 evening meal a week. I could go on but won't bore you. Result, we grew up, we learned discipline, we understood that in life things need to get done whether you are an adult or a child. A lot of things in life just aren't a matter of negotiation, they just need to get done. We brought up our children to do the same. End result, we trusted them to be sensible and gave them great freedom to do much more than their peers were ever allowed to do. In the meantime, as children they were really pleasant, fun and co-operative.

Edited

Any proof or source for that massive generalisation ?

Copernicus321 · 12/01/2025 17:36

BlueSilverCats · 12/01/2025 17:20

Any proof or source for that massive generalisation ?

None of my children's peer group had to do a similar level of chores or had responsibilities around the household. I'm not talking the odd job here or there but an equal splitting up of jobs of running the house from quite an early age. Not just the odd 15 mins vacuuming the sitting room or tidying their room.

Madamegreen · 12/01/2025 17:45

Ashwapanda · 12/01/2025 08:37

There's a massive elephant in the room here (haven't rtft fully so sorry if someone has mentioned it) but all of these children lived through the pandemic, which hugely impacted them meeting peers, being socialised and being parented. Little ones didn't go to groups and were looked after by frightened parents trying to work at the same time as looking after them, older ones were shoved on electronics often unmonitored to do school work. The kids are still recovering from that experience

Sorry I don't agree. The COVID effect is overplayed. Both mine have excelled at school, are polite and are delightful company who are social with their peers in a way that they want to.
Not how I was socialising at their age.. but who cares.

The problem is the discipline/punishment dichotomy underpinned by the 'Do as your told' ethos..
As an example, the poor weather, both boys and girls are still commanded to wear wholly inappropriate footwear for the conditions. We just exasperate children with rigid pointless rules...

New generations just opt out because they can see the dissonance.

Goldbar · 12/01/2025 18:51

Madamegreen · 12/01/2025 17:45

Sorry I don't agree. The COVID effect is overplayed. Both mine have excelled at school, are polite and are delightful company who are social with their peers in a way that they want to.
Not how I was socialising at their age.. but who cares.

The problem is the discipline/punishment dichotomy underpinned by the 'Do as your told' ethos..
As an example, the poor weather, both boys and girls are still commanded to wear wholly inappropriate footwear for the conditions. We just exasperate children with rigid pointless rules...

New generations just opt out because they can see the dissonance.

Covid has been devastating for some children and there are reports detailing the ongoing effects. It is a gross generalisation to say it has been "overplayed". Even if your own DC were relatively unaffected, some children lost parents, some families lost businesses and jobs and some mental health issues were severely exacerbated by the isolation.

mollyfolk · 12/01/2025 19:40

@Madamegreen

i think mine are fine after Covid but kids didn’t have the same experience. It definitely impacted some kids (and adults)

I think it’s interesting what you say about the rules. I find primary school to be a very nice positive environment but, what I’m hearing from other parents, is that secondary seems to be the same as when I was at school. I.e Silly uniform rules, stringent about various things. I was wondering if they are stuck in the past a bit. I’m not really sure if that’s preparing them for today’s world! Maybe the kids see it too.

User135644 · 12/01/2025 19:59

Country has gone far too soft. Kids do what they want now with impunity.

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