To think asking permission to take off a blazer is utterly ridiculous?

[ShowJumpSally]

My child's school has just moved into a new trust. Clearly it's one of those trusts as the latest email announces how children will be placed in internal exclusion or be suspended if they dare to wear a coat in the building or take their blazer off without asking permission.

Schools consistently moan about funding, there's a teaching retention crisis, teachers are overworked and leaving in their hoards, TAs are underpaid and in short supply, children's mental health is worse than ever, but somehow there's time and money to dish out internal exclusions if child gets hot and dares takes their blazer off without asking?

Aibu to say schools should try focussing their time, attention and money on the real issues instead of nonsense made up ones?
^

@Cnf1 Some of us have children in schools that don't have these ridiculous rules so we know perfectly well that they aren't necessary to help with behaviour, or attainment, or anything like that.

I hate rules like this and I say this as a (primary school) teacher ! Also the no toilet rule . I get it as children take the piss and mess about but my son has been literally desperate in class a few times . The last time he just walked out even though he wasn’t given permission .
my sons school seem to concentrate more on uniform and toilet rules then wellbeing or communicating how parents can support learning . We’re given a report with colours coordinating to whether they’re achieving or not but not given any detail in what they need to improve on!!

1. There are uniform rules and there are uniform rules. Wasting everyone's time to check sock colours, is just as frustrating for teachers as it is for children/parents.

1. No, not every single teacher agrees.

1. Having a rule saying you have to ask permission, but then always saying yes, is pointless.

1. Sometimes I do tell my doctor/dentist/whatever other professional that I don't agree with their opinion/advice. Like the time when I was called paranoid by my GP , but it did end up being a lump that had to be removed . Shit happens. The last thing we need is raising children that never question anything because someone in charge told them so.

Yes, based on your sample size of 3-5 self-selected, not at all random group of teachers who agree with you, we can say that “teachers” agree with you. Provided we just ignore the teachers who disagree with you on this very thread, although I’m sure you don’t think the same deference should be extended to them as you want for yourself.

The rest of your post is just overwrought and embarrassing. If you can’t handle simple disagreement online as an adult, I don’t see how you can model respectful behavior in the classroom.

I don't tell my dentist how to look after my teeth. I don't tell my doctor that I know better either. I'm not sure why people consider a school and its staff as something they can mould and train into what they want. It's a crazy, impossible notion that gives no credit to the years of learning the staff have under their belts. It's no wonder these professionals are leaving in droves.
By all means, keep up your riotous battles on your teens' behalf. Make sure they don't have to follow rules that don't really put them out that much anyway. I'm sure you'll sleep better at night knowing that your child didn't have to ask permission for something arbitrary.

Now this is dangerous thinking - don't challenge authority, don't challenge knowledge, respect the hierarchy. Anyone interested in a tragic example of why this type of thinking costs lives should have a read of this link!
https://issuu.com/cmi/docs/cmimagazineissue3/s/10815999

@Cnf1 Teaching kids to follow stupid rules without question trains them to be a bit like you and you are reckless with your health when you don't challenge your doctor - you put too much faith in their ability and not being overly dramatic it might cost you your life - still that's your decision - but when equipping the future generation with the tools they need for life - questioning professionals is a vital skill. I suspect you will never change and you will always feel you can't challenge medical professionals - I hope you are met with the best of their profession - so you will never need to. So far I have met too many who needed to be questioned and I never trust a professional who gets defensive when challenged - they are usually shit at their jobs - either way I can't work them.

We employ clever people - they work for clever people but we have to untrain the robotic thinking of our Grads who do not question the senior team when they have concerns - it's funny how sometimes someone with very little experience can sometimes ask the most simple but vital question that no one had considered - it takes a while for them to trust us that it's ok to challenge and it's frustrating that we have to do this, it reduces the impact graduates make and it puts every project at risk of not succeeding. Everyone in the team should have a voice to challenge.

Look I’m the last person who sides with or against the school. Take each situation as I find it. Exclusion is used like detentions were in my day. As far as I can tell. When I was at school 11-14 (by 15/ 16 I didn’t care and was used to it) we had what I would consider to be petty uniform rules.

by the time I left school I realised they were petty in order to teach discipline and part of the psychology behind it is kids push boundaries if they’re pushing against petty rules then they’re less likely to push against the serious ones and by the time they finish schooling they’ll be great employees for the workforce who can follow rules.

Why challenge anything in life as clearly the people enforcing it must know better! Luckily people speak out to improve poor rules, big or small. Or else we'd still have slaves, work houses, kids up chimneys, corporal punishment, women not allowed to vote, illegal same sex relationships, ...the list goes on.

What some people aren’t realising is that the alternative to letting DC ask permission to remove blazers would be not allowing them to be taken off at all (which I’m sure the same posters would complain about!).

The DC’s school has a fair system whereby teachers can allow removal in specific lessons if the temperature is above a certain level, and they can be removed around school at another temperature level.

Why would that be the only alternative? At my school, they have to wear their blazers in assembly and walking around school (which often involves going outside between buildings), but they are allowed to take them off in lessons whenever they want.

What some people aren’t realising is that the alternative to letting DC ask permission to remove blazers would be not allowing them to be taken off at all (which I’m sure the same posters would complain about!).

No, the alternative would be letting them take it off if they feel too warm, and deal with the consequences if they leave their blazer behind.

Or the other alternative is to let them take it off as and when. The blazer is part of the uniform so must be worn to school, but children can take them off when they think it's necessary.

I worked in a school where if one child had permission to take off his blazer, all the children in the class had to take theirs off, too.

Seriously.

YANBU

What IS unreasonable imo is blazers. Neither a jumper nor a jacket. - they're a right royal pain if you ask me. Sweatshirt and polo shirts would be much more practical.

There's no need to be smart at school - the argument that school uniform prepares children for working is outdated now that so many people wfh or don't wear a shirt and tie.

I have every sympathy for schools except for their draconian insistence on 100% adherence to ridiculous clothing rules. I don't think this is a thing is many other countries , it wasn't a thing when I went to school in Scotland and I don't see the need for it now.

Yes to all of this.

I find the reference to doctors and other medical professionals an interesting example because for every individual, of every age, bodily autonomy is sancrosant and the most basic of human rights. Teaching children that the opposite is true can lead to nowhere good.

HCPs are not 'authority figures'. They are people with specialist knowledge that may or may not help a patient. Hence many will explain the benefits and risks of particular treatments and procedures, and the decision will rest with the patient as to what they choose. They will also, where necessary, encourage a patient to seek a second opinion. Patients are involved in our own decisions relating to our own bodies, not expected merely to 'do as we are told'.

Thankfully when it comes to the bodily autonomy of regulating our own comfortable temperature our local schools are eminently sensible. Blazers are not even mandatory, albeit these are not schools grappling with some of the worst behavioural issues. As to the ones who are, it's very clear to see that rigid enforcement of school uniform policy isn't doing a great deal to tackle the problem. If this were working then at some point poor behaviour would have ceased to remain a problem.

This clearly isn't the case. So what else is there to deduce but that the quite unnecessary hang-up over uniform minutiae is only a convenient 'get out of jail free' card for heads. It sends a visible message that they're attempting to deal with discipline, when quite other measures are necessary and victims rather than bullies continue to be the ones excluded.

UK culture, sadly, has school uniforms entrenched within it. I can't see this going anywhere anytime soon, but whilst I will never encourage my DC to be a 'rules don't apply to me' type, I never have been nor ever will be an enthusiastic supporter.

That's as bad. Some children will feel the heat more. Everyone feels the temperature differently.

Senior school leaders need to spend a few months working in normal offices to realise that almost everyone is in smart trainers or casual shoes these days, a suit sticks out like a sore thumb and all hell breaks loose when the office temperature isn't right. And in an office we have hot water bottles and cosy scarves for cold days and iced drinks in the fridge and air con in the heat. Plus, we wear suitable clothes and trainers to walk to the office.

Not ignorant at all actually. My niece has selective mutism but I don't believe so many children are suffering from it that the school can't enforce this rule.
If most children were suffering from it the school wouldn't have introduced the rule. Maybe you need to seek help for your child if that's the issue. It can be helped, if not overcome, with the right support.

Why is that fair? What feels hot or cold to one person will be different to another. Why is is it fair that a person doesn't have autonomy over their own body temp?

I’m a senior manager and there are is certainly no one in my office who wears trainers. There would be words had if they did!

Personally o can’t think of anything worse than having DC in tracksuit and trainers at school. It would turn many schools into zoos just like the one I described upthread.

It is fair as it sets a consistent standard and teachers aren’t giving permission at different temperatures. It also ensures there aren’t clases full of some DC with blazer off and some with blazer on- which the head doesn’t like as it makes the school look scruffy.

@TreeSquirrel the school you described had uniform and blazers. It obviously didn't make a difference. Hmm... I wonder why?

That would work better if everyone had the same capacity to tolerate heat.

I’m sure it looks more scruffy if some of the class have red faces and sweat dripping down their face, or if some are shivering.

It’s school, not the military.

I don't understand. The point of a blazer is you put it on if you are cold and take it off if you are hot. Why would it be anyone else business whether I'm wearing it or not? Maybe briefly for a photo or something, but not while I'm learning and need to be comfortable.

That doesn’t mean the uniform rules were enforced though.

Having a rule saying you have to ask permission, but then always saying yes, is pointless.

Yes, well put. If the expectation is that the teacher will always say yes, what's the point of having to ask?

To be fair, in schools it's about uniformity, easy identification and safeguarding. The extra layer is a bonus.However, that can be achieved in other ways , an actual blazer is not necessary or need to be kept on at all times.