To think asking permission to take off a blazer is utterly ridiculous?

[ShowJumpSally]

My child's school has just moved into a new trust. Clearly it's one of those trusts as the latest email announces how children will be placed in internal exclusion or be suspended if they dare to wear a coat in the building or take their blazer off without asking permission.

Schools consistently moan about funding, there's a teaching retention crisis, teachers are overworked and leaving in their hoards, TAs are underpaid and in short supply, children's mental health is worse than ever, but somehow there's time and money to dish out internal exclusions if child gets hot and dares takes their blazer off without asking?

Aibu to say schools should try focussing their time, attention and money on the real issues instead of nonsense made up ones?
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It costs the school nothing to insist on blazers all the time, why wouldn't they do it? Look how many parents on this thread are impressed by it - it's a no brainer, even if it's nonsense loads of parents believe it works - you'd have to be a talented confident HT to only consider practical evidence based practices - the nonsense gets you brownie points too!

Not sure how they would enforce preventing children from removing their blazer if too hot if they can't enforce the kids from walking out of lessons.
How does a blazer removal rule improve this situation?

I wouldn’t ever enforce a pointless rule just to “impress” parents.

I think it’s counterproductive to preparing children for adulthood.

Unless they’re maybe going to be a barrister, they’re unlikely to have to keep an item of outer clothing on until given permission regardless of comfort. Or in the military.

Children need to learn to regulate themselves and determine their comfort level. No wonder we have some such helpless adults about, especially men!

I am a CoG and can tell you that if you follow the process (politely) some parents cannot be arsed with the polite bit, then you will get time to hear from the powers that implement this stuff and will look at how they can put it right or will explain fully why they can't. If you think going on social or the press is the answer, when you have not fully explored the complaints process then you are part of the reason that teachers and heads leave the profession and there is a massive problem recruiting school governors.

Yet so many schools manage absolutely fine without stupid rules such as the blazer one. Most of the rules you cite - e.g. walking on the left, having pens and pencils - have an obvious justification; requiring permission to take off a blazer has none. You actually increase the chances of disruption when teachers have to waste time enforcing rules they can't justify.

Respect for others? To not have blazers constantly lost? Tbh I think this one probably needs amending to 'ask permission/in hot weather teacher tells students to take off blazers if they need to' -which retains the element of keeping blazers on and asking permission if it hasn't been given.
Also, tbh, this one is like going to the toilet - you could end with disruption because a determined group in the classroom sequentially ask to remove their blazers (happens with going to the toilet which is why schools give 'passes' for this) interrupting the teaching.
But the school may have good reasons e.g. constant problem with lost blazers.

They told you it works - could they quote any study that said each of the rules works individually? I wonder how they would account for the success of schools abroad with no uniform. As stated, I suspect your school improved because they tightened up on other things that actually matter; also because they managed out the children they found difficult, rather than finding a way to meet their needs and include them.

It's pretty standard tactics when taking over a failing school to change the uniform and impose draconian uniform rules. Academies do it because they think it impresses parents, and because it's so much easier than improving teaching.

If you have permission not to wear a blazer, then you are not pushing against any boundary by taking it off. So why would a pupil who is thus abiding by the rules suddenly decide to stop doing so? And if they are doing it just because they want to push against boundaries, then why would they stop doing so with the blazer?

Because if a school strictly enforces simple rules like not removing blazers, that high standard contributes to school culture and makes it more likely for students to follow rules like not walking out of class or fighting.

The specific school I mentioned was rated good by ofsted only a few years ago. A few years on and after a change in headteacher and lockdown, it is now a zoo. That will all have started from easing up on and not enforcing simple rules.

But why is asking to take off an item of clothing a matter of respect? I certainly wouldn’t be asking my manager if I could take off my cardigan - not because I have no respect for my manager, but because how would she know whether I am too hot or not? Not as though they would be indecently dressed without the blazer.

Would you be surprised to know that one of the schools which consistently gets the best results in the UK, year after year, has no uniform?

How do you account for all the excellent schools in other countries with no uniform?

That school has a totally different demographic to every state school in the country though. The vast majority of top state and private schools have strict uniform.

How could it harm any school if it abolishes stupid rules and simply enforces simple but sensible rules? Is it not better if teachers are teaching rather than dealing with requests to take off blazers?

The reality is that most sensible teachers simply make it clear to their students that they can do what they want with regard to blazers, which makes the rule a nullity anyway for much of the time. So why have it?

You are guessing here to suit a belief system you have. How would you know blazers were the essence of the problem. Change of HT often causes problems - whether blazers continue to be enforced or not!

They have uniform only because that is the norm in this country. I'm not sure that they all have uniform, and certainly it is not the case that they all have silly rules about requiring permission to take off blazers.

I went to a school where there was no requirement to wear blazers in the school at all, and it was left totally to us whether we wanted to wear jumpers, long or short sleeved shirts, etc. The school achieved excellent results.

I couldn’t disagree more.

On what basis?

I am an educator. And I emphatically agree.

Whilst interested in people's - particularly other educators' - views on what is wrong with the compulsory sector, I frequently see what comes out of the other end. Children are schooled to pass exams. Far too much educational practice is based around metrics which do not benefit learners one iota. They appear in university lacking the ability to construct a sentence properly, and their capacity for critical thought and independent, autonomous learning seems to decline with every intake. In my particular discipline, practically the whole of Level 4 is spent trying to undo the damage done to students' education at GCSE and A' Level. First lesson: forget pretty much everything you thought you knew.

The point of higher education is that it builds on something. Allegedly. There is nothing to build on here; students need to be taken back to the absolute basics, and expend energy (if so inclined, which a lot are not) to learning how to write a cogent sentence and structure their ideas properly.

Needless to say, the ones unprepared to put in that effort don't get very far.

Standards are through the floor. This is true fairly universally, no matter the calibre of the universities concerned. A concerted screw-up has been made of education at every level, no small part having been played by constant inferference from successive governments of different ideological persuasions.

Uniform is a completely irrelevant diversion which has little if anything to do with maintaining standards, either educational or behavioural. A terrible curriculum which sucks the joy out of learning - together with the misconception that quantity of time in classrooms means quality of education - also leads to disaffected students.

These are the serious issues. Uniform is a triviality.

Because a blazer is a compulsory part of uniform and therefore the default position is that it should be worn at all times. The temperature today is to be below freezing in many parts of the U.K.- there is absolutely no reason why any DC should be removing their blazers absent SEN.

Of course permission should be given to remove in genuinely exceptionally warm weather in a specific classroom.

So just an arbitrary rule to exert control then

If you pull students up on small things, bigger things rarely become an issue. Schools try to avoid big behavioural problems by focusing on small things. The school I went to would even give you detention for having your top shirt button open and it engendered a sense of respect for the school and the staff in it. There were zero behavioural issues and teachers could go about their day teaching rather than dealing with nonsense from disrespectful kids. It's the pushback from kids and parents these days that is making teaching hell for teaching staff these days and that's why they're leaving in droves.

But the rules should make sense. Yes have a rule that you must wear a uniform, however a rule to ask to be 'permitted' to take it off is about power. Kids that are too hot or uncomfortable will not be able to learn effectively. If the only way you can 'control' behaviour is by refusing autonomy on removing a blazer when hot you have far greater problems.

Was common practice at boys only grammar schools in the 70s.

The only time we were all allowed to take off our blazers, the temperature had hit 93 degrees F (34 degrees C).

The best schools have high standards in all areas- blazers are only one part of that. Asking permission from the adult in charge of a room before removing a uniform item is good for discipline and respect.

The alternative is complete chaos as seen by the school mentioned above.

I agree, there are more important things. For some reason the current disciplinary fashion is to be tough on the small things. It will change because it doesn't really work but I'm guessing that's a good 20 years away. These kids will be shocked by the workplace dress code I bet 🤣