To think asking permission to take off a blazer is utterly ridiculous?

[ShowJumpSally]

My child's school has just moved into a new trust. Clearly it's one of those trusts as the latest email announces how children will be placed in internal exclusion or be suspended if they dare to wear a coat in the building or take their blazer off without asking permission.

Schools consistently moan about funding, there's a teaching retention crisis, teachers are overworked and leaving in their hoards, TAs are underpaid and in short supply, children's mental health is worse than ever, but somehow there's time and money to dish out internal exclusions if child gets hot and dares takes their blazer off without asking?

Aibu to say schools should try focussing their time, attention and money on the real issues instead of nonsense made up ones?
^

The alternative is not complete chaos. My children's schools have no uniforms, or dress codes, children can take off and put on their jumpers/hoodies whenever they want, they can even go to the toilet whenever they want, and it's not complete chaos. Because the schools have sensible rules that most children are fine following (exception being the 'not leaving the school grounds' rule which has been flaunted for decades, practically a tradition now) and they don't have petty pointless rules that piss them off.

Absolute rubbish!
High standards are based around quality teaching, respect and good facilities. Being able to be responsible to decide whether you are hot and need to remove a blazer is basic autonomy which should be encouraged.

I think they're actually trying to go back to what worked in the past with these measures. The reason they mightn't be working now is because parents are rolling their eyes and encouraging their children to disrespect these small, easy to follow rules. No one's saying the child has to suffer feeling hot, just that they should ask for permission to remove uniform. It's a small inconvenience for a bigger lesson learned.

Quality teaching is impossible when kids and parents are fighting rules all the time.

Quality teaching is not possible though if behaviour is out of control. Do you think there’s much good teaching happening in the school I mentioned where students are running out of lessons and assaulting teachers and each other?

I totally agree, there doesn't seem to be any logic or rationale to any of the 'rules and regulations' implemented at our GGS's secondary school either! Their uniform 'policies' are pedantic and old fashioned to say the least...they put photos of the type of 'acceptable' shoes on their website, many of which most teenagers wouldn't want to be seen in!! 😱

No one's saying the child has to suffer feeling hot, just that they should ask for permission to remove uniform. It's a small inconvenience for a bigger lesson learned.

What important life lesson is being learned by asking to remove an item of clothing when feeling warm?

Respect, discipline and obedience. It also reinforces that the teacher is in charge of the room and decides when they are allowed to alter their uniform.

You seriously think a teacher should be in charge of what a teenager wears, and that alone will instil respect and discipline. It’s a school not a military camp.

Or is it more about teachers wanting the illusion of control over every single aspect of a child’s behaviour? In my experience the most respected teachers, who had no discipline issues, were the ones who treated their pupils like people - spoke to them well, were approachable and knowledgeable on their subject matter and generous with that knowledge.

It teaches them they don’t have rights about their own body.

It’s a stupid rule.
Don’t talk when teacher is talking- sensible.
Bring the equipment you need to school - sensible.
Don’t run in the corridors- sensible.
You can clearly explain to children why we have the sensible rules. Explaining to children that they have to ask permission to remove their blazer is difficult because it’s a stupid rule and quite frankly makes the teacher look silly.

Indeed. Quality teaching is impossible when teachers are forced to waste their time in endless conflict with students and parents over arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with the school’s educational mission.

Luckily, there is a way to end all this fighting of the rules: not having rules that most people will want to fight.

Daughter is 15, at a local private day school a long long way from Eton.. Ave class size since reception, across different Prep and Senior schools, has been 21 around 25 now for most of her GCSE subjects! She has never: had to ask permission to go to the loo (hand up I’m going to the loo), never had to ask permission to remove an item of clothing, never had to walk in single file, never had the length of her skirt questioned, never had the fact she has her ears pierced three times and a helix questioned (don’t judge battles picked!), hair/make up/jewellery rules up to year 8, much relaxed and not commented on unless dangerous or ridiculous since year 9. Mixed school, very specific uniform, very specific sports kit, but Pastoral head very vocal that she wants to spend her time making sure kids are happy and succeeding not talking about the length of their skirts/ties with them.. The respect seems to work both ways.. Yes their skirts are shorter than we’d probably all like but they wear their prescribed uniform as expected. They hate having to wear school hoodies/tracksuit tops etc.. for sport but they do.. Have to wear uniform for mocks/exams begrudgingly.. Formal in many ways so not a bohemian free for all school.. They understand that all the leeway and allowances (ie if you need the loo go.. we’ll look the other way on the hoop earrings) are earned and based on them respecting 90% of the rules 90% of the time. Yes if you push too far there are pretty harsh consequences but they are given enough rope to either build their independence and confidence and show they know where the limits are or hang themselves.. People often raise the “confidence” of private school kids as somehow nefarious but it’s built in a multitude of small ways by allowing them certain freedoms whilst teaching them that respect is earned and can be easily removed and finding the consequences out themselves. And yes it’s manageable even with the same issues other schools in our region face (behaviour/vaping/turning up without uniform/losing uniform etc.. Can’t of course, for example, be compared to schools/regions facing gang/knife crime issues and I’m not trying to). Teachers are very aware of who is taking the piss and will allow or not, sanction or not based on that and most will learn and fall in line.. some of course never will but it works for the vast majority of kids.

Most teachers don't give a shit how many earrings a child is wearing or whether they have a blazer on, but we are expected to uphold the school's policies. It's literally part of our job and in our contract. I'm always surprised how many parents think that individual teachers enforce trivial rules because we really really believe in them (or enjoy telling off kids).

Respect, discipline and obedience. It also reinforces that the teacher is in charge of the room and decides when they are allowed to alter their uniform.

You can't teach respect, or force it, or discipline people into it. The more stupid a rule is (there's worse than the blazer one) the less respect kids tend to have for the person enforcing them.

Then remove the pointless powerplay rules and put kids first.

And preventing them from taking off a blazer helps how?
They're not even in the room apparently.

Behaviour is important. Non-teachers don't seem to grasp how disruptive requests to go to the toilet, have a drink etc can be, and are routinely used by students to disrupt a lesson. I can imagine what fun a disruptive student could have with requests to doff/don a blazer

Because if a school strictly enforces simple rules like not removing blazers, that high standard contributes to school culture and makes it more likely for students to follow rules like not walking out of class or fighting. I went to a school with strict uniform rules. I agree I didn’t walk out of class … but there were a good few classes I simply didn’t attend.

A few years on and after a change in headteacher and lockdown, it is now a zoo. That will all have started from easing up on and not enforcing simple rules. If only the new headteacher had insisted one wearing blazers.

But people arguing in favour of blazer rules are saying they need to be in place for kids to be able to flout them, else they’ll flout rules that do matter.

So it seems kids always do flout rules. Therefore by your argument quality teaching is impossible in any school.

You’re right OP, it’s ridiculous and kind of demeaning to the people who attend the school

Jellycatspyjamas

"What important life lesson is being learned by asking to remove an item of clothing when feeling warm?"

None at all.

So in essence these rules are for your kid to go out into the world right

so they’ll have to ask their boss or who ever is in charge of the room by your logic to remove their outer clothing.

yeah ok

chaos isn’t caused by the blazer rule by the way

Hard agree… They will never have to ask for permission to take a jacket off, or to leave a meeting to go to the loo, they WILL have to figure out what is appropriate and when, learning this is what’s important.. stripping them of any autonomy doesn’t teach them anything, learning through behaviour and consequences does. I love uniform and rules that drive respect, but schools are creating robots who cannot think for themselves, or who react to all authority because of crazy authoritarianism, that’s just not how the real world works!

Chaos is caused by failure to enforce rules and insist on high standards.

How well do you think students at the school I mentioned upthread where they are running around corridors assaulting staff and each other are prepared for the world?