DS wants to charge

[CompleteOvaryAction]

DH and I are planning a big birthday party in the near future - live music , catering, marquis etc, for a joint "big 0" birthday.
Our DS will be in his third year as a music student and we mentioned we'd like his band to play for some of the evening. He wants us to pay him going rate for his services.
I feel that, for close family you waive your professional fee (we'd expect to pay his band mates) but he's adamant he wants paying too.
It feels like he doesn't appreciate that he's only where he is now because we have funded him. Whilst we don't expect "payback" it would be nice if he thought to acknowledge our help with a gesture of his time for our special celebration.
Is this just his inexperience talking? should we stand our ground, or does he have a point?
I'd rather not have him play, and just have him there as a guest if he insists on charging to play. What do you think?

It can take a long time to see your parents as people and I think he’s probably just a bit oblivious. Particularly if he buys thoughtful gifts for other people.

I actually would mention to him feeling a bit hurt and unappreciated by his attitude to you more generally. And would include the gifts in that chat. Hopefully then the penny will drop and he will be embarrassed and make more effort. Although awkward (and I get your point about not wanting to ask for gifts) I think that’s better than feeling silently hurt by him and not giving him a proper opportunity to fix things.

Also, if not now then when? You’re at an in between time where you are still supporting him and he’s still young, so it’s ok to have “parenting” type discussions still. But in 5 years if he’s still a bit useless and takes you for granted the dynamic will be too entrenched. I honestly think it’s worth the discussion now rather than just hoping for him to change with time. Also because it’s not too late for him to do something thoughtful for your big birthdays.

Doesn’t have to be a big drama - but just explaining why you are feeling a bit hurt. He might have his own side of things too. And this type of honest chat is how relationships improve. I’d get another band though so he doesn’t see it as part of a guilt trip to do this specific thing (which is a bit of a grey area).

I find it odd that you’ll pay his band mates but not him. Of course he’s not going to be happy with that- who would be?
I think you’re being really mean.

I don't think they're 'mean' exactly. I. think they're incredibly naive to suppose a son who has never had the basic human decency to give either of his parents a birthday or Christmas present is suddenly going to jump to attention when it comes to gifting a much larger professional service to them at a celebration.

Sorry but did you not bring him up to buy you presents? That’s what parenting is about.

From the age of about 5 we involved our children in choosing and wrapping presents ‘from’ them to the rest of the family. As they got older and had pocket money/earnings they would buy them, obviously, but we still have little ideas meetings to avoid duplicates and offer inspiration.

If you’ve just been spraying money at him and not at the same time discussing with him what nice things he could do for his father, or your DH not offering ideas about what you might like for your birthday, then you have created the monster I’m afraid.

I'd have followed this up with,

Me: Oh. I see. That's okay, then. I will fully treat you as an adult then and won't be supporting you anymore while you finish your degree. You will need to pay your own way going forward.

As I imagine you are heavily subsidising him in life (housing, food, transport, etc) so he can finish his degree like the rest of us with university students.

I am still getting my head around the fact that this boy (adult!) has never gotten his parents a present and perhaps even moreso, that the OP and her husband haven't set him straight on that many, many years ago. It shows such a lack of care, thoughtfulness, human decency etc that I'd worry about the values I'd raised my children with. Charging to play at the party is of a piece with it.

The concept of 'giving back' which is hanging over this thread - sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly stated - makes me feel quite uncomfortable. Isn't the whole point of being a parent putting your whole self in without any expectation or guarantee of 'getting something back'? Children aren't an investment we expect a return on. If anything, the 'return' is their going off into their lives and making a success of whatever it is they do, which this young man seems to be doing. I am perhaps not particularly objective as I have first-hand experience of an extreme version of the 'return on investment' model of parenting (won't go into details), but the discomfort I feel about this scenario is because it's at the top of that particular slippery slope.

The band issue complicates this case. It does seem to be making a deliberate and quite mean point if you pay all the others but not him (quite apart from the fact, as many have said, that it's the band rather than the individual members that command a fee). If he were a solo musician or a DJ I could imagine a light-hearted 'oi, don't you think you should perhaps play as our present?' and maybe an agreement on a lower fee than usual.

I'm also a bit baffled at the horror over no birthday/Christmas presents (to the extent of calling this young man 'grasping' and 'self-absorbed'). To mention an anecdote from upthread, I'd have been utterly horrified if my early teen child had spent 65 quid (!) of their own hard-earned money on a present for me, and would wonder what messages I'd been sending them, while also being very touched and moved - but I'd certainly be telling them not to do that again. My late teen/young adult dc didn't give me anything for Christmas either, but they are kind, engaged and engaging, sensible human beings who function very independently and are perfectly happy to help out ad hoc (e.g. looking after their little sister). That's enough for me.

This is so selfish and disappointing. Hope he wakes up and realises.

That is such a horrible attitude.

When a student, my son used to do some work for me — I would subcontract some jobs to him and pay him (generously). That enhanced his income and meant that he didn’t have to do shifts in a coffee shop or whatever. Presumably that is what the OP’s son and his band mates are doing: working as musicians to supplement their maintenance loans and top ups from their parents?

I think I'd have the

"I'm disappointed with how you treat us" conversation that he's an adult and you have brought him to think of others and lead by example and he makes no effort to even buy gifts and the one time you ask for one he declines.

I'm past being bankrolled by my parents but I totally get your point.

Isn't the whole point of being a parent putting your whole self in without any expectation or guarantee of 'getting something back'?

I am a huge subscriber to this pov. But I also think as a parent that my job is to help shape the sort of adult who doesn't only think about themselves or what's in it for them. My parents never asked for a thing from me but it was my pleasure to so whatever I could to make their lives easier or happier because, in my experience, that's how loving families operate.

100% this

OP “Hi DS. You know how DH and I are planning a big party that we’re inviting friends and family to and are already talking about months in advance? Instead of being one of the family at this big event, will you be one of the entertainment staff, stay sober and provide the music rather than being able to dance with everyone and talk to people?”
DS (Doesn’t really want to be stuck performing at the party feeling like a second class guest compared to great aunty Maureen and the couple from across the street. Is also aware that DM thinks family should do things for each other for free and knows he can’t ask his musician mates to do it for free.) I (don’t want to but I) can, but you’re planning to pay us right?

It's not, it's a wake up conversation about him giving a little back when it won't actually cost him a thing.

I have a child at university, who we subsidise considerably and are happy to do so. He would NEVER behave like this. Never. Because he appreciates everything we do for him.

I think you're wrong. You should be paying the full band rate and they do whatever it is bands do about splitting the proceeds amongst themselves, including your son. What were you going to do, line them all up and hand each one cash except your son? Weird.

Well the DS has shot himself in his foot.

He could have got his friends to do a free gig in return for good food and drinks and repaid them on their family events in the same way.

Instead he’s shown his mum yet again that she and his dad don’t matter.

I hope his gravy train is massively reduced.

He probably should have said ok mum but there’s a band rate rather than saying I will have to be paid.

If their son has never bought them a present and is grabby then that’s got to be down to the parenting style. How many of us on here have not experienced that because we wouldn't have tolerated it while raising them.

If your adult kid is an entitled brat you really need to look inside yourself as to why they are.

@ChannelFiveDrama has nailed it.
I mean, seriously, who the fuck charges their own parents like this? Especially when said parents are subsidising university studies.at the same time. Totally alien to me.

The majority of my immediate family are self-employed in a variety of professions and not one of them would charge a close friend or family member in this way. The person receiving the service would offer to.pay and the person providing it would wave them away,.possibly with the throwaway suggestion that a.drink might be bought at some point in the future. And that would be the end of it.

OP has explained she has always modelled gift giving and generosity to DS, and he does give gifts to his friends and others so she has done well.

He has a blind spot where he sees his parents as just ‘providers’ (OP’s word) that needs to change.

Several of my family members have been in bands all my adult life (I'm old). When it comes to gigs for family of any of the band, it has always been done willingly and for free.

People are forgetting that bands enjoy playing, and usually enjoy those sorts of gigs the most, where they have a receptive audience, it's usually fairly local, and they can mingle with family and friends before and after, and often interact during. It's a lot of fun and enjoyed by everyone.

What has shocked me here is that the OP seems to have accepted no gifts throughout this selfish young man's life. Why did the parents not take the young child out, from about the age of 2, separately, to choose a surprise gift each birthday and Christmas - for Mum, Dad, fond Aunty, sister etc?

I have just done that for the first Christmas my young grandson will remember. Mum and Dad were thrilled, and Grandson was over the moon to see their faces light up with a gift he had chosen specially.

I have no advice now for the OP. You reap what you sow.

@CompleteOvaryAction do the band not just have a set 'band rate' though? I've booked bands before, and never paid each individual member a fee, just 'the band'. So just pay 'a fee' and let them split it equally!

As for your son not buying you and your husband birthday and Christmas gifts...that's a separate issue, and down to how you've brought him up! He sounds very spoiled and entitled, so maybe time to change this with new expectations! You reap what you sow I'm afraid 🤷‍♀️

Our DS will be in his third year as a music student and we mentioned we'd like his band to play for some of the evening. He wants us to pay him going rate for his services.

You wanted his band to play so you pay the fee for the whole band, not the band's fee minus his bit or hand each one of them their individual fee in an envelope and leave out DS.

There's obviously a lot of backstory to this and you feel he doesn't appreciate the support you have given him but this incident is not the time to address that. If you want the band to play, then you pay for the whole band. Or if you're not happy about paying his band, including him, then you should hire a different band.

Good luck sorting this one out OP! It's clearly not a simple one, but I'd focus on the spirit of giving and seperate it from the gig. Perhaps apologise for expecting it to be a gift, tell him you'll pay the band (it's true it might all go into a single pot that gets split equally between them, which makes things tricky for him) and work on the teaching of giving in general.

But as @ChannelFiveDrama says, it’s the parent’s job to shape who we are. Spoilt, entitled adults are usually made not just appeared overnight. I also supported my son through uni, have helped it out financially etc which is not easy as a single parent, but he is not the slightest bit entitled.

I would have paid his band as a band not as individuals.