To think the British educational system is all wrong?

[CookiePlough]

It seems like the aim is to make adults out of children as soon as possible rather than allowing them enough time to just be kids.

My main issues are that 1. kids start school way too early and 2. spend way too much time in school.

What is the purpose of a 4 year old child learning to read and write and do addition and subtraction? How does this help the child either in the present or in the future when they are an adult? I can see that 4 year olds are clearly capable of learning these things and of course being able to read or do simple arithmetic is not a problem. The problem is what are they missing out on in order to learn these skills? In my opinion they are missing out on playing. Unstructured, self determined playing. You can learn academics at a later age but you can't really make up for not getting enough playtime as a child. However, this wouldn't be a problem if the school day wasn't so ridiculously long. There just isn't enough time to play after school. There is no time to go anywhere after school (eg the park), for playdates, for any play that takes longer than an hour, to do extra curricular activities (without missing out on Unstructured play time) or anything else. Everything has to be done on the weekend but then when do you have time to do things as a family?

I understand most kids have 2 parents working full time so kids need to be in some sort of childcare setting but even nursery is preferable at thst age to school as there is more unstructured play and more adult supervision. School requires much more in terms of social skills, resilience etc. Which kids,should learn but not by suddenly being dropped in it.

I'm just ranting because I'm tired and upset rather than explaining my points properly. And it's not like I can change the system. I just feel so sad that kids are missing out on being kids. It's not the worst childhood obviously but it's also not as good as it could be.

It would ruin the labour market by draining workers. It will never happen.

I work in the secondary school system. It really is a one size fits all

The only thing I disagree with is not having time for the park after school. We did it all the time and are in Scotland!

I couldn’t agree more. just to give another alternative view, Here in Switzerland compulsory kindergarten begins at 4 BUT there is no formal learning of letters and numbers. They have 2 years of KG and this focuses on learning the school rhythms, social learning, independence (they walk to school alone after lessons from the police on how to behave in the street), the dental hygienist comes every second month to teach them to properly brush their teeth, they learn colours, days of the week, months of the year, the seasons etc. And gradually spend longer at sitting down learning tasks.

at 6 they start first class, here they are introduced to letters and numbers. The class sizes are varied, maximum is 25 and soon as they are over that the class is split into two, my DS has a year group of 28 split into two classes of 14, DSS lives in Zurich and always had 23-25 in his class.

days are short, in the first class Monday and Tuesday are full days (8.20-12 and 13.45-15.15), Wednesday to Friday are mornings only. A third afternoon is added in year 2 and a fourth after that but Wednesday afternoons are always free.

as a working mum it’s a bit of a pain but even in a small village the child care options are good.

the only downside I would say are there is limited differentiation, particularly at the top end, so DS is stuck doing basic adding up when he is capable of multiplication and is therefore bored.

Hard agree!

Most countries seem to start around similar ages but they just call it different things. So the US says it starts at 6 but most children do kindergarten and pre-k before then which from I can see doesn’t seem to be different to our reception/ year 1.
scandinavia may start later but most children are in nursery before then with some learning

I agree. My eldest at 4 was no way ready for school. I think the European system is much better. Kindergarten then school at 7.

In previous generations governments have avoided the accusation of educating the rich while skulking the poor by offering a comprehensive education forcing non academic children to read Shakespeare and solve quadratic equations in a rather redundant exercise when focus should be on job skills.

Options to integrate schooling with work placement should be invested in heavily e.g. the moribund T levels so giving practical skills to the relatively non academic to get them a head start with a useful and potentially lucrative career. The high flying gcse, a level then degree is becoming less and less the idea.

Agree. I live in a different country but I put my daughter in to a school which follows the British education system. I remember worrying about her not knowing her timetables at age 7 and worrying about her handwriting. After realising she went in to autistic burnout at age 14, it’s really made me open my mind and think about why do we put these children (especially the neurodivergent ones) through year after year of sitting in class, following rigid rules which seem to have no real point, memorising for exams at a huge cost to their mental health. They say it’s to learn to follow rules when you are at work, but as an adult you have a choice whether you want to leave that job. The damage schools to do their mental health is far worse. For some kids, home schooling is a much better option if the parents have the means to do so.

I agree. Having 2 summer born DC I have naturally done a lot of research into child development.

Fact is cognitive ability isn't fully developed until the age of 6/7. That's tabstract thinking that enables us to read, write and do maths.

What we do in year R &1 is create little robots that are able to recite stuff without understanding what it is.

Secondary school is just as bad. Suddenly all focus is on academics & going to university. DC1 got a lot of pressure to go uni straight after 6th form. She wasn't sure what / if to study and got a job instead. Naturally school wasn't happy because she wouldn't be part of their statistics.

And don't get me started on choosing GCSE subjects at age 14 and A levels at 16... they still have so much growing up to do, many don't really know what future career path they will take. (I also know one DC who couldn't get onto a specific university course because of "wrong' A levels. But spent 2 years working in the industry before applying!)

Thinking about it, it's no surprise that so many DC struggle.

There seems be general misunderstanding about how education works countries (except from those who currently live there, of course). In the end it’s all just different terminology for the same thing but children are essentially in some form of educational setting from the age of five or already has certain skills (e.g. read) by the time they start school.

Re: the much lauded Finnish system:
the curriculum starts getting a lot tougher from 3rd grade (9 years old), that's when my DD realised she needed to study for exams, and its very intense in upper school - my 13 year old had over 50 exams and tests in the autumn term, and a lot of homework every day
I can’t imagine by the children in this country would be able to cope with the level of work and testing that they do from age 9 in Finland. We would be crying out about their mental health and maybe rightly so.

One of my DC would cope fine with that levels of work whereas, another, who is probably brighter, would find it quite overwhelming but eventually would learn to manage their time.

However, the one size fits no one is an issue with the educational system in this country, although I don’t know whether that other countries do it any better.

I find educational threads on MN at one extreme or the other and a discussion can be rather limited: either the education system in this country is failing our children, there is a lack of discipline and parental support for teachers or private schools are a waste of money when 97% of the children do completely fine in the state system.

It's the parent's job to teach them to become well-rounded adults, with the school supporting this.
Why have kids then absolve yourself from the responsibility of bringing them up? Schools barely have time to educate kids because they are having to deal with kids who aren't potty/toilet trained, do not listen, do not attend, bad behaviour...

Completely agree, both my DCs are home educated now for different reasons. They are both primary age but the focus at school very much seems to be on passing tests and attendance figures rather than educating children. They had very little break time, they were both in classes with some children with extreme behaviour issues and very little additional support.
I could go on for ages about the issues in schools. Home education isn’t possible for everyone and it’s not ideal for us but it was the best option for our children. There are an increasing number of families choosing to home educate. At some point, I suspect the government will no longer be able to ignore it.

Absolutely agree. Luckily, I could read before I went to school, and books have been a massive feature in life.
But apparently, children as young as 6 now demand (and get) pads/tablets, so books will replaced by some digital game or other.

Fact is cognitive ability isn't fully developed until the age of 6/7. That's tabstract thinking that enables us to read, write and do maths.
Cognitive development isn’t complete until much later than 6/7 - well into teens depending on which theories you subscribe to. So we’re constantly pushing children into learning they’re not quite ready for.

Theres no “British” education system though. The system in Scotland is better in some ways, eg later starting age, the easy ability to defer younger kids starting and much less formal testing are good. Curriculum for Excellence is a disaster, in my opinion, and makes it very difficult to benchmark how your kids are doing, and it’s just too broad.

I think the secondary school set up actively works against children being able to learn and develop.

They have 2 years of KG and this focuses on learning the school rhythms, social learning, independence (they walk to school alone after lessons from the police on how to behave in the street), the dental hygienist comes every second month to teach them to properly brush their teeth, they learn colours, days of the week, months of the year, the seasons etc

Shouldn’t parents be teaching them how to brush their teeth? I know that it is now happening in some schools in the UK but that is a recent major parenting fail.

And I am totally ok with my 6yo not walking home by themselves- that’s a life skill that can easily wait until the upper end of juniors. I don’t think we have a nation of teens or adults who can’t cross the road or use public transport. By y7 most are travelling independently to and from secondary schools, some several miles away.

I agree re: social learning and much of that can only be learnt in a group setting that doesn’t comprise just your sibling(s).

Both my children didn’t learn to read and write till yr 1/2 the younger one never even went to nursery and started school in yr 1. Both are avid readers, have done well academically the younger got 3* at A level in three stem subjects. All through their school lives teachers have commented on how articulate and creative they are. Both are well rounded and very interested and informed about the world around them.
I genuinely don’t think children from homes where parents have the time and skills /knowledge/confidence to educate their children in other life skills including physical activities or attend nurseries where there is an emphasis on providing a broad stimulating age appropriate education do they need to learn to “foundational skills” like maths and reading at 4 years old.

I agree children would be better going to school about age 6/7 or at least let children have reception and year 1 play based.

This, this and this again. Please could you stand for Parliament next time round? Resetting the mortgage rules would solve so many more of society’s woes than just the dire state of our education system.

I agree with some of the points you raised but, having gone through school in 4 countries, I'd say the British system was the best. It has its flaws but the other three were appalling (rote learning, lack of creativity, out of touch curricula, lecture style classes, etc).

There isn't a British educational system - do you mean the English system?

I have one in primary, reception is very much play based, they do a bit of handwriting, reading, numbers, the singapore method is in fashion now to develop “number” sense which I approve of because it’s appears to use a lot of physical manipulation to help children visualise numbers. Her school deliver the curriculum in a very creative way and most of it is literally teaching through play and they are outside a lot. It’s bloody lovely. They really aren’t being treated like little bots.

Tbh Dd’s teacher thinks she’ll be happier in yr1 as it’s more academic. Not all kids are the same and I actually think it harms children to not educate them. Numeracy and literacy are required to access pretty much everything. I very much appreciate DD’s school making an effort to make sure the kids like them but also providing the stretch she needs because that does actually make her happy.

It’s clear from the posters here that there isn’t actually much difference as to when formal learning actually starts between countries and Finland sounds like they ramp up quickly.

What should education actually look like? I’m wary of anyone suggesting kids don’t need Shakespeare etc it’s a skill to learn how to read that and for many children school is the only place where they will be able to access things they don’t have in their home environment. It’s all very well saying “kids don’t need that” if you already have knowledge of it, why object to them having it. My background (immigrant family) meant that I wouldn’t have come across a lot of texts that it turned out I actually enjoyed as a teen and young person, Chaucer, Ibsen and Ford for example.

I actually think that a lot of the people talking about how other systems are 'better' don't have a detailed understanding of those systems. There's positives and negatives to all curriculums. Yes the 'British' curriculum is designed to produce standardized worker bees, but to be honest that's the same pretty much everywhere in the world.

I have teens and my concern with the English curriculum isn't actually the early years stage. It's later when the focus starts to be overwhelmingly on exam performance and it seems to be to a massive detriment to almost everything else. This definitely happens everywhere in the world to some extent but I do feel the English system is getting worse in this respect. DS has just finished term 1 of year 10 (so about 20% of the way through his GCSE courses if you assume term 3 of year 11 is all revision). He is already super focused on how to answer exam questions and there doesn't seem to be any focus at all on actual learning. It was definitely not this extreme when I was at school - yes there was a focus on exams but this early on (and to some extent never) I was not focused on working out how to answer a 9 pointer v a 7 pointer! DS is doing very well, but I want him to be learning how to learn not how to answer exam questions. But of course from the school's perspective they want the students to get as high grades as possible. From what I'm seeing this continues at a-level - repetitive focus on how to do exams can lead students to get high grades, but this doesn't mean they actually know the subject. I worry that university then becomes a massive shock.

So I'd say that the system isn't even working for the academically able students.

One thing that makes me incredulous possibly more than anything else is
Pen Licences.
WTAF.

And for anyone thinking the English system is overly restrictive and one size fits all, take a look at the French curriculum :)

There seems to be an obsession with calculating angles. I'm not saying don't introduce the subject, its the the amount of time dedicated to it that frustrated me as a child and again as a parent.