To think the British educational system is all wrong?

[CookiePlough]

It seems like the aim is to make adults out of children as soon as possible rather than allowing them enough time to just be kids.

My main issues are that 1. kids start school way too early and 2. spend way too much time in school.

What is the purpose of a 4 year old child learning to read and write and do addition and subtraction? How does this help the child either in the present or in the future when they are an adult? I can see that 4 year olds are clearly capable of learning these things and of course being able to read or do simple arithmetic is not a problem. The problem is what are they missing out on in order to learn these skills? In my opinion they are missing out on playing. Unstructured, self determined playing. You can learn academics at a later age but you can't really make up for not getting enough playtime as a child. However, this wouldn't be a problem if the school day wasn't so ridiculously long. There just isn't enough time to play after school. There is no time to go anywhere after school (eg the park), for playdates, for any play that takes longer than an hour, to do extra curricular activities (without missing out on Unstructured play time) or anything else. Everything has to be done on the weekend but then when do you have time to do things as a family?

I understand most kids have 2 parents working full time so kids need to be in some sort of childcare setting but even nursery is preferable at thst age to school as there is more unstructured play and more adult supervision. School requires much more in terms of social skills, resilience etc. Which kids,should learn but not by suddenly being dropped in it.

I'm just ranting because I'm tired and upset rather than explaining my points properly. And it's not like I can change the system. I just feel so sad that kids are missing out on being kids. It's not the worst childhood obviously but it's also not as good as it could be.

With some very recent posts... I wonder if some posters would like a system in lower primary at least, where the pupils did 9.00-13.00 on "core subjects" such as reading, maths, science... then an optional afternoon for arts, technology sport etc so the few who wanted their children in for short days could have it, but those who wanted an all round education or needed to work could have that option too?

Learning basic craft skills like how to use a paintbrush, how to lay out a poster, how to stick one thing onto another thing are perhaps more useful and relevant to most people's lives — in home and in work — than many other subjects. In any given day I'm more likely to be putting together a powerpoint, painting the hall, fixing a broken toy than doing trigonometry (which, I should stess, is also worth knowing).

And when I was at primary school in the 70s and early 80s a wonderful broad curriculum of sport, music, arts, crafts, maths, English, history, geography was implemented every day. And school was enjoyable and busy. No SATs no national curriculum.
Something changed in the 1980s and certain subjects got devalued.
School wasn't perfect, teachers could be very sadistic, kids still bullied but there were stick cupboards full of paper until July and felt tips pens paint pencils and exercise books in abundance!

Hm I actually disagree. I might be biased because I love music and have always found a lot of joy and comfort in playing an instrument and singing but i do think that music and art should be a part of every child's life. I don't think school should just teach skills that you can make a career out of especially not considering how much time they spend there.

One thing I do like is that the instrument lessons are during school hours as we wouldn't be able to fit them in otherwise. However, when I was a child and finished school at 1pm there was plenty of time in the afternoon to have instrument lessons two or three times a week (or do whatever else interests you).

I know the posters can be seen as a piece of art and making a poster teaches valuable skills but i don't like the frequency of the posters (or similar project like homework). A poster once a term is fine. A poster almost every weekend is a waste of time. I've told the teacher how long it takes her. I'm still waiting for a response. They also always explicitly state in the homework to make it look attractive as it will go up on the wall. 🙄

Dd's homework isn't voluntary but she isn't in reception. She is in year 4.

Arts, technology,sports etc. Should not be optional as too many underestimate their importance, so I don't think that would be a good idea at all. I think one of the strengths of the Finnish system is that these subjects have never been downgraded - a lot of school time has always been devoted to them, and technology/handicrafts is especially good, I mean the oldest students are doing things like building boats and sheds

I'm a primary teacher and I totally agree we start formal learing too early. Many children are still starting with mark making at 4 and cannot yet draw a circle - yet the first letters we expect them to write are S (easy) a (hard) and t (cross aspect is difficult). Reception should just be about social skills, building communication concentration and vocabulary, learning how to regulate emotions to some extent, and fine and gross motor skills. Once children have these skills, they will learn so much quicker in Year 1 - which should be continuous provision.

@CookiePlough NO homework is mandatory. You are, frankly, a bit nuts spending that long on stupid posters. Stop doing it. Have you read your homework policy? I’m assuming this is a state school so should have one! What is the aim of the homework? I bet a poster every weekend doesn’t meet the aims of the policy. The reason you are getting posters is to make you think it’s mandatory but who is marking it? How is it enhancing subject learning? Difficult to say probably. It’s hardly ast if it’s the same every week.

At infants, my DC always had the core subjects in the morning and all the others in the afternoons. Sometimes integrated into core learning in the morning. DD1 had instrument lessons from y1. Recorder then violin from y3. In many ways the afternoons were too short for everything!

Yes, I agree with you OP. We start our kids at school very young in the UK.

I think much the same about homework for primary school children, especially in the holidays . It is just stopping them reading for pleasure and doing other important activities.

@dizzydizzydizzy You do realise many dc have no books and just have games on tablets? What reading for pleasure? I would prefer dc to have an expectation to read set by the school. What schools set holiday witk? Never seen this in private or state sector.

@mids2019 Just because a pupil won’t be a musician, that’s no reason to abandon music. Or Drama. Performing helps with confidence. It’s not about being the best it’s about taking part. Should sport be abandoned on the same basis? Only a few will be really good. Or do we accept it has wider benefits? As does music.

@TizerorFizz yes I do realise many DC don't read for pleasure and don't have books in the house and I agree with you about school setting expectations about reading. However, I think at the very least, DC should have time to play with their friends when not in school. Everyone is different.

But most dc do play with friends. I cannot understand why not. Leaving school at 3.20 we were home 10 minutes later. Sometimes with another child. The dc played until tea and after tea the play friend was collected. We then did reading and whatever else - bit usually more play! I don’t agree that the homework should be lengthy or that schools should change because dc live 45 mins away. That’s excessive. Sometimes dc had clubs like brownies and swimming and dc 1 Aldo did strings orchestra at the music centre. Later on a choir too. She liked all of this and loves her singing even now. Parents can set up playing if they want to . They just need to look at their lives and make adjustments. Even dd2 at a very well known prep has friends to play in y4.

The problem isn't the subjects themselves, it's the way they're delivered.

Especially with games/PE which is mostly about team games, so those who are poor at it are set up to fail, not to mention being set up to be bullied. There should be more "solo" kind of sports/activities options where the pupil is simply getting more exercise for well being, and maybe challenging themselves to improve rather than knowing they'll never be able to compete with more able sporty pupils.

Same with music and art etc - the kids who don't have the skills to play an instrument, sing, or create an original piece of art are compared against all the others who can, whether it's performances in the classroom, posters on a wall etc. They may not be "marked" as such, but the poor pupils know they're poor compared with the brilliant classmates.

Too much team sports can be very off-putting for some for sure (though others enjoy them very much). In primary school here they do a bit of learning the skills of team sports with little competition (except baseball, which they do have proper matches in) but mostly pe is playground game type things, gymnastics, orienteering, swimming, skiing and skating, so not so off-putting. Upper school has some team sports but it's again not so much, they go to the gym, go for walks (to certain points in town), go to the skate park, things like that, as well as skiing and skating. Much less off-putting to most. And the optional course in pe does things like self-defence, shooting, archery, downhill skiing, and other activities the students request, as well as some team sports. I'm pretty jealous of DD's PE experience in school, much better than mine!

I also did gymnastics, archery, self defence, skating and yoga in PE as well as team sports. We had PE every day in high school, which was very valuable. I may be wrong but I don’t think British schoolchildren have most of these opportunities.

@poetryandwine No they don’t but there are clubs.

I didn’t feel my dc were judged at sport at primary school. DD1 wasn’t sporty but who cared? No one really. DD2 was better and enjoyed it. At primary no one judged their music or art ability. Other dc who didn’t play an instrument might have been better at sport. I don’t think we should limit dc just because some are not going to be great at these things. DD2 did dance and the school had no idea. My DDs swam but school didn’t know that either. Primary school is just about tasting what’s available and parents try and supplement that with out of school clubs.

I hated team games at school but you have to take the rough with the smooth. We also did some ballroom dancing. State grammar!

I feel a bit sad that we didn't do ballroom dancing when I was in school, just some line dancing, so i don't know how to dance. Ballroom dancing is a big thing in Finland, they learn some group dances in primary school (new one each year, which they perform at the independence day celebrations) and partner ones in upper school. DD gets 3 weeks of dance lessons early this term, to prepare for the valentines dance. In high school the second years put on a big ballroom dancing show, with their own choreography too, for parents and local news streams it too. It's absolutely brilliant to watch.

How would this work? All pupils would need to be using PE hall/music room at same time if all in the afternoon.
Also, interspersing academic topics with more physical/practical ones helps with learning fatigue as it activates different parts of the brain. I think they are all important, up until at least year 9.

But part of the purpose of team sports isn't to make an premiership footballer, but to develop team building skills, communication skills , all valuable life skills.
Learning to fail/lose gracefully but keep trying is a life skill also. Many things in life are competitive, whether that's exams or competing for a job and not learning how to deal with this isn't helpful.

And this is from someone who was rubbish at any sport which needed coordination, and almost always picked last in teams.
I excelled in academics and it was a lesson in humility to realise i definitely wasn't good at everything.

Tell that to the ultra sporty bullying kids who are only interested in winning!

And to the games teachers who regard games lessons as training practice for the school's A team!

Interesting - we were judged at almost everything, and I don’t think that does early years pupils any good at all! Catholic school. My upstanding DF finally started doing the cover drawings for my book reports one year because we were all so fed up with a nun who was taking major deductions for my childish efforts, after it became clear at a Parents’ Evening that none of the accomplished cover pages on display could have been produced by a child.

I also had external dance lessons and we would sometimes do a bit of folk dancing in school, IIRC mostly in Geography lessons. I wish I had learnt ballroom dancing in school, or ever. But the lack hasn’t had a huge impact on my life.

Put it this way: the UK system is far, far, better than the US system. And no metal detectors on vast majority of entrances of British schools either ...

Of course if you are good at something you are keen to win, and we shouldn't discourage that.

I excelled at sprinting and won every shorter distance race at every sports day. And then a parent complained that their little darling was 'sad that the mean girl wasn't letting her child win'. I wasn't mean, I was just fast. But I then got made to sit on the sidelines which was rubbish. I wasn't a bully, but that parent definitely was, targeting an 8 year old.

My daughter also excels at sprinting, and her classmate had a moan at the teacher that she wasn't letting them ever win, that they needed a headstart. Their teacher came back with, 'ok, we can do that but im going to take points off your next spelling test because you are better at spelling than her', and they were all 'no sir, that wouldn't be fair sir'.

Children need to learn that unfortunately life isn't fair, if you want something you need to work/fight for it". Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, both are OK.

You're not understanding my point. It's not that people expect to win, it's that they get criticised, bullied, etc., by their team mates and teachers if they cause their team to lose. Typical example is the line of shame where the "favoured" few take turns to be the team captain and they choose the class mates they want on their team, leaving the ones neither wants to be chosen last - that's just cruel and should have been stamped on decades ago.

I didn't mind coming last in running etc - I didn't expect anything else. But being ridiculed and bullied in the team sports had a detrimental impact.

My DD1 went to school with a world junior sprint champion. Obviously ultra one sided!

Ballroom dancing didn’t help me either. As I was tall I was a “boy” because we didn’t have enough boys. So not much use ever! We must have had a very wet winter if they resorted to dancing!

So you had a poor PE teacher, which is awful, and now I think they are better at deciding teams in an arbitrary way, such as counting '1,2' across the class. But that doesn't mean thst no one should do team sports due to few poor teachers.

Sometimes my daughters PE does girls vs boys, to bring the boys down to earth if they are getting boastful - 9 times out of 10 the girls win and that teaches them a thing about girls being as fast/as strong as boys. They actually usually win as they are better at communicating and working as a team!