To think the British educational system is all wrong?

[CookiePlough]

It seems like the aim is to make adults out of children as soon as possible rather than allowing them enough time to just be kids.

My main issues are that 1. kids start school way too early and 2. spend way too much time in school.

What is the purpose of a 4 year old child learning to read and write and do addition and subtraction? How does this help the child either in the present or in the future when they are an adult? I can see that 4 year olds are clearly capable of learning these things and of course being able to read or do simple arithmetic is not a problem. The problem is what are they missing out on in order to learn these skills? In my opinion they are missing out on playing. Unstructured, self determined playing. You can learn academics at a later age but you can't really make up for not getting enough playtime as a child. However, this wouldn't be a problem if the school day wasn't so ridiculously long. There just isn't enough time to play after school. There is no time to go anywhere after school (eg the park), for playdates, for any play that takes longer than an hour, to do extra curricular activities (without missing out on Unstructured play time) or anything else. Everything has to be done on the weekend but then when do you have time to do things as a family?

I understand most kids have 2 parents working full time so kids need to be in some sort of childcare setting but even nursery is preferable at thst age to school as there is more unstructured play and more adult supervision. School requires much more in terms of social skills, resilience etc. Which kids,should learn but not by suddenly being dropped in it.

I'm just ranting because I'm tired and upset rather than explaining my points properly. And it's not like I can change the system. I just feel so sad that kids are missing out on being kids. It's not the worst childhood obviously but it's also not as good as it could be.

@Icanthinkformyselfthanks "We did always send children to school at a very young age but you would have thought that the passing of many decades and the evidence from Scandinavia would have caused successive governments to reconsider the consequences of this policy, they haven’t because they are addicted to our taxation".

Scotland is testing the water with this and looking at raising school starting age to 6. The problem is that there isn't a properly developed age 5 - 6 pre-school curriculum. Even if "play based" it needs to be thought through and age appropriate. The current plan is that they just stay behind in nursery which is not what they do other countries where they have a kindergarten stage between. (The cynic in me thinks this is more about managing the issue of oversubscribed P1 classes rather than nurturing kids with a gentler start).

I'm a teacher and agree. Also, although the current system has apparently improved our PISA scores, that doesn't seem to translate to anything meaningful. Unproductive economy, diminishment of creativity and the arts, lack of opportunity for graduates, diminished opportunities in science and research because of Brexit. There is no point trying to replicate the education systems of China and Singapore because they have completely different cultural and economic structures.

I also agree with PP who have said the system is a complete failure for ND pupils. Both my academically able autistic DC have struggled to access school.

Natsku says her 13 yr old DD sat 50 tests in autumn term at her Finnish school. I think they work a lot harder than we think they do.

Trig is fundamental to any higher maths and physics. Without a solid understanding of trig you can’t learn calculus, linear algebra, mechanics etc. So unless you want to determine at a very young age who is going to study those higher subjects, everyone has to do trig in the early years.

Well you’d need to sort out the gender pay gap for a start. Who do you think would have to take the hit on future career and pension if one parent stayed at home. It wouldn’t be the historically lower earner!! The cycle would just then continue with women doing low paid part time work, whilst men get to thrive. What happens if the couple split up and the woman has no savings and no pension and on part time low wages?

@Areolaborealis , as I’ve got older I have come to realise that no government truly has our best interests at heart; I share your cynicism.

To be fair a lot of NT children struggle in British state school. Classes of 32 do no pupil any good.

I live in a country where reading stars a bit later. I know a 5 year old who finds this frustrating. She's definitely ready to learn, is starting to recognise letters for herself and is interested in books.

Then you say the school day is too long, but primary finishes around 3.15 doesn't it? That's not a long day at all. Even in secondary, my school finished at 3.40. That was not a long day for an 18 year old!

Imagine the shortage of labour. A lot of jobs would be left unfilled.
The NHS probably can't afford to have nurses looking after children at home and the schools can hardly afford to have teachers at home as SAHMs.

Short days, just 4 hours to begin with, increasing up to 6 by the end of primary school (but variable, some days might be only 3 hours, others 6)

That sounds great for the child but because both parents often need to work full time, school becomes childcare.

That's their parents' responsibility, not that of the school.

I see the Finnish comparison a lot on threads like these. I think it's an irrelevant comparison for England because of totally different scale and the much more ethnically and culturally diverse population here (there may be more relevance for Wales and Scotland with their small, more homogeneous populations, perhaps).

I have a friend who teaches in the Canadian system and I think one of the key differences is choice.

We expect a choice of where kids go here, even if not everyone exercises it. She had to send her own kids to French medium schools to get the kind of education they wanted (even though they are not French speakers and their city, Toronto, is not a French speaking one either).

I mean, that's a bit mad isn't it?! Imagine in London having to study Maths and Science in French as the price of getting to choose an alternative to the nearest comp?

I’m a teacher. I teach year three.
I hate mastering number/ teaching for mastery as advocated by NCETM.
No 7 year old needs to know that this is the addend or this is the subtrahend etc. They just need to be able to add up and subtract and start to understand multiplication in terms of counting in 2s, 5s 3s.
I have to teach maths twice a day - twice a day it’s ridiculous.

Nailed it.

For the first two grades (and for all children with higher sen needs) there is after school club that starts as soon as they finish their last lesson and goes on until 5, and in most schools there's morning club too (alas not my son's primary school, except for in preschool) but children are expected to be more independent so childcare isn't needed to the same extent as in the UK.

Wrap around care.
it's common practise in countries with short days at school.

School is right, sorry.
DH is a freelancer and works from home, he spends most of his working day in jeans that are held together more by prayers than fabric, but he still puts a suit on to meet clients, because it's a non-verbal signal that you take the other person, and the job they might give you, seriously.

Oddly enough your DH seems to have learned appropriate dress depending on situation. He’s not wearing a suit and tie daily, regardless of activity which is what we’re expecting teenagers in school uniform to do.

I can’t see how wearing a blazer to learn cookery or undertake science experiments adds to a child’s learning and it’s not at all reflective of the workplace, where you would dress for your day. There are days I need to be in formal dress and days when leggings and a jumper are perfectly fine. Certainty no one is checking my shoes don’t have a logo, or my tights are the right colour.

It may be training people to be unthinking, compliant work bots, but that isn’t what I want for my kids.

I think you're basing your op on your own kids. My DS taught himself to read at age 3 and my Dd has picked it up very quickly since starting school and is really enjoying it. They've both flourished. There's no one size fits all solution, waiting until age 6 to start school would have been detrimental to mine.

I think the biggest issue would be enforcing discipline and the low level of parental involvement. This is something the Finnish population has become accustomed to and accepts over time.

The behaviour children and young people (and tbh parents) display in British schools is miles away from what Finnish schools demand.

Same, I was reading and doing maths at home with my mum for fun way before I started school (not as weird as it sounds, adults do Sudokus for fun).

Yes, and Ofsted requires parental involvement and checks for it.

So the inspection system would have to change too.

There is a curriculum review under way at the moment.

I contributed to it (anyone could). It was a hell of a thing. About 50 pages of free text boxes covering the entire age range from 4 to 18!

Well with language in particular, this is far easier learned when very young. If reading, writing, spelling&grammar can be understood so young, it is much easier than learning later in life and sets them in good stead for their future. This doesn’t have to be at the detriment of playtime which is of course important.

That’s a really good point about uni being a measure for success- like you say so many kids come out of it saddled with debt and with a degree but very few life skills. Degrees do not measure the success of a curriculum.

my children are also in Welsh medium education. My youngest is in year 4 and her English reading is now at the level of an average English medium pupil in year 4.

I really do think the focus on skills and not knowledge is so much better in a world where you can just google any fact you want to know. My year 8 child is the first cohort to do the new exams with the new curriculum rollout I think. I’m really hoping the new curriculum is a success. I’m out of mainstream teaching and have been for a few years but it sounds good and I like that it involved the view of teaching professionals too.