Is taking toys away acceptable discipline?

[Nespressso]

I’m going to preface this by saying I HAVE READ THE FOLLOWING:
how to talk so kids will listen
explosive child
janet lansbury
big little feelings/ transforming toddlerhood/ dr Becky goodonside etc on insta
sensitive child

so please don’t just say “have you tried offering choices or making it a game?” I have tried all of this, and found none of it works on my 4yo, who is just fucking difficult. I’m not a useless parent as my other child is not at all like this, and is much easier to manage.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

problems mainly with playing up (refusing, whining, writhing about) when asked to do ANYTHING, so mainly transitions and initiating tasks (eg go and wash hands, get your socks on, etc) we already do
all the prep work for transitions (eg daily routine, warnings for time (5 mins, 1 min etc) picture chart routines. Tried it all. What do we do when she still messed about? What sanction / punishment for bad behaviour?

we do all the scaffolding, rewards, validating feelings, etc etc and it’s all carrot and no stick. What metaphorical stick do people actually use? (Obviously I’m not suggesting physical punishment) but I am lost. I have tried all the good stuff and hard work and it’s not helped one bit. But I feel the minute anyone suggests putting their child into time out they are told it’s abusive etc but I’m at a loss with where to go. She doesn’t respond like my other child who is just generally more amenable and easier to manage.

I'd just work through each situation as it comes rather than going to a punishment tbh. Plenty of praise when doing the right thing and choice is you can do it or I will help you for putting on shoes etc. By sounds of your dc, she wouldn't "appreciate' having her toy taken and suddenly behave nicely.. you'll know if this sounds right!
Obviously if she's throwing a toy etc then yes, I'd take the toy.

Op you've said what you do but not the actual behaviour

And age

Gentle parenting is for gentle children.
I think what you’re proposing is reasonable about trying to be stricter. You can see if it works.

@mikado1 but we have been trying this, and it doesn’t work. What specifically do you mean by “work through” the situation?

what typically happens is we will ask her to do something (any daily task) and it will be met immediately with resistance. She will refuse, whine/ shout, squirm/ hide behind curtain/ run off/ refuse to do any task even with us. We aren’t asking her to do things independently.

even if it’s putting shoes on to go somewhere really nice that she wants to go she will refuse for no reason (just that it is a transition and doesn’t matter how much prep work / warnings we have done before. I offer her lots of support etc and she just behaves appallingly and I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the bad behaviour and it never improving. It doesn’t matter how we approach things it’s always the same. I feel I’ve got to try something different as I can keep living with it.

You can hold a firm boundary without shouting or punishment, if she needs to wash her hands before dinner but refuses then you get on with eating dinner and she can writhe around on the floor for as long as she wants, there will be no dinner until her hands are washed.

Not much help, as i did use time out 10 years ago even if not often.Never threatened a consequence without following through. Natural consequences do work best.

No socks? Fine be cold, let your shoe rub your foot (have a spare pair in your pocket).

Refusing to put shoes on? Fine , we're staying home.

Doing it but taking ages? Well now we lost the train so you have to wait 20 more minutes/ we can only stay at the park for a bit because we're late.

Won't walk properly/hold my hand? You’re going in the pram.

And so on.

Toys only if related to the actual behaviour like not tidying up, playing rough etc.

However if you want to try it, my only suggestion would be to never use her sleeping/comfort toy , you know.. the really special one.

Definitely give it a try and see how it goes. What do you think of my feeling that she may not behave accordingly?

I mean I'd just deal with these situations as they come ratherthan try to fix with a random punishement.. Sounds like she and you are in a bit of a negative cycle, I remember that around the same age.

I once took my 3yo out of the house with no shoes on, it was cold. By the time we got to the end of the driveway she was begging for her shoes on. Might seem cruel but the natural consequence for refusing shoes is that your feet get cold, we're still leaving the house whether she likes it or not

Is there any family history of autism? Look up Pathological Demand Avoidance and see if it rings any bells. Either way, you might find using declarative language makes it easier for her to follow demands.

With the shoes thing (I know that's only one issue out of many) but have you tried getting her ready well in advance? Particularly at a dead/boring time. DD still gets ready 1 hour/45 min before we need to go somewhere and she's 13 now!!!

@Legaleagle4 every daily task is a battle. Sitting at the table, eating breakfast, getting dressed, getting in the car, going to the toilet,, going anywhere, doing anything, leaving places, the bed time routine etc etc,

she behaves horribly whenever we take her out anywhere won’t sit still whining refusing to do anything

anything required of her is a battle. We have age appropriate expectations, help her with lots of support eg if she is refusing thrashing around on the floor whining “I can’t stand up” I would say I will help you, offer her my hand and hold hands to door, sit with her and place out her shoes and help her whilst allowing her to do what she can etc.

it’s not like im saying “go upstairs and get dressed” and then I’m surprised when she can’t achieve it. I just can’t cope with every single thing every day being like this all the time.

Don't buy into all the nonsense that says even timeouts are wrong. It's really extreme and the positive reinforcement only approach will just leave you cranky and exhausted with probably a poorly behaved child.

We do timeouts although I guess they're a blend of timein / timeout as I go and sit with DC. We hardly ever raise voices, I just inform DC they are going to timeout.

One controversial thing we do that shouldn't be controversial as absolutely insist on an apology. We model apologising in the home.
So many young adults just cannot fave their own flaws and it starts with learning to accept you're capable of doing wrong as a child.

Worked a treat for my now (almost) 9 year old.
If you continue to do x then y will get put on the shelf.
Didn't often have to do it because a simple explanation of what the consequence would be was usually enough for her to rethink what she was doing.

What do you think will happen when you take away her toys ?? I doubt it will improve her behaviour. What will you do then ?

@BaffledOnceAgain yes I do feel that’s what she has. But we have tried to be low demand and if anything that seemed to encourage the behaviour.

Stop giving excuses.

Have you considered Pathologic7al demand avoidance (PDA)? It might be worth researching the strategies and giving them a go.

I would take a toy away if it was being thrown or used to hurt someone, or used in a dangerous way. Not for unconnected things.

I will say, I had a four year old like yours. It was atrocious for months. Probably 4.5 was the peak. It did get better quite suddenly at 5.

Did being patient and understanding and trying not to lose our cool help? No idea. To be honest, she turned a corner when she did something extremely bad in public and I was so upset I cried and cried. She walked home quietly in silence and was never that bad again.

She still struggles with transitions. We still try to support her. But she is able to vocalise what is upsetting her better now.

I choose to frame it as: she's struggling, not giving me a hard time. Still want to tear my hair out some days but it puts it in perspective.

Best of luck.

OP I get it, DC1 is like this and no amount of gentle parenting worked and to my shame I do end up shouting sometimes if we HAVE to leave the house, for school etc. DC1 has been diagnosed as ND now so at least I know there is a reason, it doesn't make the constant battling any easier though.

Things I have found helpful, one demand at a time and offering a choice (put your shoes on, do you want to wear your trainers or shoes), clean your teeth (with this tooth brush or this one), brush your hair (do you want your hair up or down) that kind of thing!

You have my solidarity though as people with children who do not behave like this DO NPT understand the level of avoidance and daily battles.

Sounds like she is very determined and wants tp do things her way. One of mine switched at 5 it was incredible
You could reason with her.
The other....
I'm still struggling now.
I had to drop and lower all expectations and go with her flow. Things like the car seat I had to bribe with sweets, after about 10 days and some dolly drops each time she was programed into getting in, so I would distract with something else to drop the sweets.
But she was trained by that point to just get in.
I let bet wear any clothes she wanted and realised it didn't really matter as long as she wasn't naked on a cold day etc.

t

That is a completely different kettle of fish, and it will be exhausting.

Can you give some examples of the language you use in your demands?

Sorry too many messages to read and reply as I am doing.

re the natural consequences, some
fo them
woyld actually feed into the behaviour as what she wants is to not do the transition. Eg shoes not on we don’t go, that’s a win for her. We have used this approach for lots of clothing related things eg won’t put her coat on fine let her be cold, so we do this already. But what she wants more than anything is to “delay the thing “ whatever that is, so by just allowing her to refuse to wash her hands and ignore her that’s what she wants. She doesn’t care if dinner is delayed because she doesn’t want to sit down and eat dinner anyway.

in terms of how she would react if I removed a toy, I don’t think she’d be happy, but to be honest I don’t really think that’s the point.

Gentle parenting is for gentle children is often true but before you reach for punishments just be sure you're dealing with naughtiness not anxiety. Punishing anxiety just makes things a whole lot worse.

Personally I didn't confiscate toys (unless they were being used inappropriately) but I did use time outs. I also mistook a lot of defiance for naughtiness when it was actually rooted in anxiety. If I'd recognised the anxiety we'd have realised that our difficult child was in fact autistic much earlier.

Have you tried consequences - won’t put on shoes to go to park. Ok well I’ll bring your sibling, Dad will stay with you.

Won’t eat dinner, ok. Tell me when you’re hungry and then the rest of you sit calmly and eat.

When she starts crying and moaning. Walk out of the room and leave her to it.

Pick her up and carry her out to car if you have to and don’t talk to her as you do.

Be firm and don’t feed her bad behaviour iykwim. Don’t cajole, be firm.