Is taking toys away acceptable discipline?

[Nespressso]

I’m going to preface this by saying I HAVE READ THE FOLLOWING:
how to talk so kids will listen
explosive child
janet lansbury
big little feelings/ transforming toddlerhood/ dr Becky goodonside etc on insta
sensitive child

so please don’t just say “have you tried offering choices or making it a game?” I have tried all of this, and found none of it works on my 4yo, who is just fucking difficult. I’m not a useless parent as my other child is not at all like this, and is much easier to manage.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

problems mainly with playing up (refusing, whining, writhing about) when asked to do ANYTHING, so mainly transitions and initiating tasks (eg go and wash hands, get your socks on, etc) we already do
all the prep work for transitions (eg daily routine, warnings for time (5 mins, 1 min etc) picture chart routines. Tried it all. What do we do when she still messed about? What sanction / punishment for bad behaviour?

we do all the scaffolding, rewards, validating feelings, etc etc and it’s all carrot and no stick. What metaphorical stick do people actually use? (Obviously I’m not suggesting physical punishment) but I am lost. I have tried all the good stuff and hard work and it’s not helped one bit. But I feel the minute anyone suggests putting their child into time out they are told it’s abusive etc but I’m at a loss with where to go. She doesn’t respond like my other child who is just generally more amenable and easier to manage.

Apologies for my spelling / typing mistakes I’m trying to type quickly and my phone screen is broken.

re the meals thing - I guess that’s a question I need to ask myself. In all honesty, if I spoon fed her beige food in front of the tv my life would be easier. But is that really the right choice? Really? Is teaching children to sit down at a table and have a family meal not important anymore, and it’s better to take the easy ride and hope she will come round?

we have tried picnics, eating family style (eg platter int he middle / buffet etc) and it’s too distracting for her, she won’t eat, she objects to feeding herself (eg the action of putting the food from plate to mouth, not necessarily about what the food is) and then wakes in the night hungry.

if I spoon fed her whilst she was watching tv we wouldn’t argue, but I also wouldn’t be teaching her the skills about how to sit at a table and feed herself.

she goes to school, just started at reception. Summer born. School no concerns

the thing about PDA is she actively loves to copy other children and she is an angel at school. If it’s PFA shouldn’t it apply to
teachers as well?

What do you do when she wakes in the night hungry?

4/5 is still pretty young. Does she eat at school? Cooperate with dressing/undressing to go outside to play or for PE? Might you be engaging too much in discussion rather than instruction. Keep it really simple.

Removing toys is totally fine.

My dd is very headstrong and determined your sounds similar
I'm no nonsense now

It sounds like there is too much chat you are being too nice / "gentle".
You dont have a gentle child so you need to adapt.

I basically have developed my own "framework" of sorts so i am following the process this helps me not get emotional and I'm never angry or frustrated at all really which surprises me as i am a pretty emotional person generally...

I questioned if it was doing anything but when i "look back" I can see its really worked over months.
My dd now rarely kicks off unless tired / hungry / overstimulated.

She knows if mummy says no it means no, she also knows she can trust me if i say something will / wont happen and "mummys job is to help her"
I also let her be "the boss" for some things. She picks how/ what we play. I let her pick her clothes / days out / her food... low level stuff like that

whining “I can’t stand up”
"Yes you can stand up. if you want help ask mummy" and I'd walk off to get water bottle / put on coat whatever. If she asks for help and messes about I'd stop immediately and say "okay stay there. Let me know when you are ready to stand up" and walk off again.

Shoes
Me: Pink or gold shoes....?
Dd: I want my booootiesss
Me: hey. Thats not how we talk. Ask nicely please
dd: can i wear my boots please?
me: yes great choice. put them on and then lets go! we can see if we can find a puddle!

If she wont put shoes on we wait. i just wait silently while vaguely engaged in something else (packing day bag or whatever)
Anything she picks up or tries to entertains herself with is removed without much chat beyond "you need to put your shoes on"
If the clock runs down and i have to leave they are forceibly put on (unless shes going to injure me) then she just goes in the car shoeless and they come with us.
I had to do this a lot 18m - 2yrs... it started changing gradually and then i noticed when I'd go to put the shoes on she'd stop resisting and "give in to the shoe" and now at 2 coming up 3 its a non-issue.

It's really hard i quite like this lady on IG called brat busters (ig ore the dire name) she's calm and no nonsense

I initially read that as ' do x and you will be put on the shelf' I thought the elves were back!

Are you pandering to her too much? If she won’t sit at the table, tell her to let you know when she’s hungry and the rest of you sit and eat her, chat and ignore her.

Does she look at tv ? If so, could you tell her no more tv, unless she behaves during the day and then she can look at it for a short time at xx o’clock.

I think starting school sometimes makes them a bit like this, they're following rules all day at school then at home they let loose.

I'd allow plenty of boring down time (not too many after school extra curriculars etc) but also suit the discipline to the child. Just find something that works. Toy on a high shelf for a minute worked with mine when about three.

We let kids have TV briefly in morning but only when breakfasted and dressed, so you have no TV as a consequence for messing about. Refusal to put on shoes and coat etc - call their bluff, out the door they go.

No, it’s not. It’s just a way for you to feel in control and good that you’ve punished, thinking problem solved, when actually you haven’t done anything at all but chip away at the relationship with your child.

If she has to stay home because of bad behaviour, don’t allow her play with toys, look at tv or whatever it is she wanted to stay and do. Make it boring.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

Best unsolicited advice I ever received when I was chatting with a stranger about how my children were so different (not complaining at all, just observing) was, "Parent the child you have. Not the one you wanted, expected or hoped for. The one who is right there is front of you."

Sje said ot was the best parenting advice anyone had ever given her and she always passed it on.

And it's true.

When I was struggling with a behavioral issue I call the HV. They sent someone to my house to observe the interactions. They gave me some things to try and revisited a week or two later. It was really helpful.

The naughty step worked well for mine. I find a lot of this newer parenting is very soft.

It’s not really about putting on shoes. I feel like that’s what people are latching on to. It’s about her just being soul destroyingly difficult. Everything is hard. Always.

she is unbelievably demanding and pointlessly defiant. The eating thing, sitting at the table without her WOULD NOT WORK. Honestly with respect it makes me realise most parents have no clue what it’s like with a child like this. She wouldn’t eat. All night. For hours if I didn’t have regular routine for meals.

Does she copy her sibling too?

The copying thing is interesting, and probably why she manages to "hide" it at school and she's probably masking too. That will make her even more exhausted mentally and emotionally and resistant at home.

So let her, do you actually think she's going to starve herself? Again, what do you do when she wakes hungry in the night?

Talking to your daughter, offering help, cajoling, gentleness hasn’t worked. Time to change method - firm voice, matter of fact, this will happen if you don’t do this, don’t engage in tantrums other than to say I’m leaving the room until you stop screaming/crying. Go into another room and do something fun with your other child.

Obviously don’t shout or be rough but adopt an I’m taking no nonsense approach. Ignore and walk away from the whinging. Start this method when you’re at home and don’t need to leave in five minutes for school, or whatever.

How do you ask her to do things?

I'm all for time outs. Let's them calm down and you clam down.

You won't like my answer. I apologise now. You're the "problem ". She's "an angel" at school because they're not related to her, she doesn't push any buttons for them, they can have a "take it or leave it" attitude .

As teachers we don't care if your children arrive without shoes or pyjamas. We give them no attention for it and they soon change. I don't want to say we don't care whether they eat their lunch or not....of course we do....but equally we can't make them or argue about it, so they go without.

Take her with no shoes on. Leave the dinner. Go without the coat. Ignore the whining and walk off. Too much choice/conversation/explaining/tough love/gentle love/ultimatums/time out/toys out/whatever whatever isn't working for you. So stop all of it. Hard I know....but at the moment (it seems) she's getting a lot of attention bad or good a lot of the day, for a lot of things. Take all the conversation and arguing out of all it. Remove yourself from the conversation. Pick her up if she won't cooperate when you have to get somewhere etc etc.
Good luck 👍

But have you actually tried it ? She might not eat dinner that night and go to bed hungry but she’ll eat breakfast the next morning. Going to bed hungry one night is not going to harm her. She will ask for food when she’s hungry enough.

The two of you are in a cycle that needs to be dismantled.

PDA is a spectrum though. We have one child who copies ONE other student. If that student is off one day then the child with PDA will absolutely refuse to do anything without sometimes hours of staff members talking it through with her

I read all those too, explosive child was most helpful in understanding triggers and how to negotiate them. However ultimately what worked eventually was a star chart (bribery basically, 10 stars and you can choose something from the shop, star awarded on a day with zero hitting).

She had got into a bad habit of reacting a particular way and we were trying to train it out of her to be blunt. She has a really short temper (tbf her dad and I are similar, so we get it). It worked because she was motivated to change her behaviour, punishment didn’t work so well on her because she’ll just decide she doesn’t care. I have only ever confiscated a toy she has thrown.

Not all kids are the same, I started out as a gentle parent btw and I still think some elements about patience and calmness are good advice. However it doesn’t suit every child. She’s also NT, just had extremely big feelings along with a dollop of extraordinarily high levels of stubbornness.

She is absolutely free to behave how she likes, we don’t expect unquestioning obedience but we do expect no hitting and for her to be reasonable (a little whinge or negotiation is also absolutely fine).

I think several PP have offered good advice - offer choices. That way your child still has a measure of control. But make either choice acceptable to you. "Time to put your shoes on for the park - do you want to wear these or your trainers?" If they continue to refuse, still frame the consequence as a choice. "Well , you can choose to put your shoes on and we'll go, or you can choose to not put them on and we won't go." Don't get angry, but if they whine at not going to the park, calmly remind that they made the choice.

one of mine was a bit this though maybe not as bad so I can picture the hell

it has got loads better now just through time

Nothing made it go away so solidarity, it is really hard. No parenting techniques are a gold bullet. Taking toys away probably will just make her resentful and she will say I don’t care? Even if later she does, in the moment it won’t change the behaviour.

Couple of things that did help a bit.
not offering choices and ridding out any tantrums about going out. I no longer offer cloths choices at all. They just make it harder.
or occasionally I offer 2 but if a decision isn’t made in a few seconds I say fine you will have this one which usually spurs her to pick the other one which I am fine with
I didn’t take no for an answer on going out. I just picked them up put them in the car and we left when it was time.(easier said than done)

With food, (I know this is probably against advise) if they didn’t want to sit down and eat they didn’t have to but the food wouldn’t wait for them. A few times we had either me saying I ate it or it got thrown in the bin and all they would get a couple of hours later was something very boring like plain toast.
now if I say it is time for food and they say no, (first I explain the toys can be played with after food) then I say fine we will eat it and she changes her mind and does sit down after all

Still lots of winning all the time… but less tantrums

I reserve toy confiscation for throwing them( v frequent still) and time out for other dangerous usually hyperactive behaviour which is much rarer