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Original poster

Is taking toys away acceptable discipline?

128 replies

Nespressso · 29/12/2024 16:51

I’m going to preface this by saying I HAVE READ THE FOLLOWING:
how to talk so kids will listen
explosive child
janet lansbury
big little feelings/ transforming toddlerhood/ dr Becky goodonside etc on insta
sensitive child

so please don’t just say “have you tried offering choices or making it a game?” I have tried all of this, and found none of it works on my 4yo, who is just fucking difficult. I’m not a useless parent as my other child is not at all like this, and is much easier to manage.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

problems mainly with playing up (refusing, whining, writhing about) when asked to do ANYTHING, so mainly transitions and initiating tasks (eg go and wash hands, get your socks on, etc) we already do
all the prep work for transitions (eg daily routine, warnings for time (5 mins, 1 min etc) picture chart routines. Tried it all. What do we do when she still messed about? What sanction / punishment for bad behaviour?

we do all the scaffolding, rewards, validating feelings, etc etc and it’s all carrot and no stick. What metaphorical stick do people actually use? (Obviously I’m not suggesting physical punishment) but I am lost. I have tried all the good stuff and hard work and it’s not helped one bit. But I feel the minute anyone suggests putting their child into time out they are told it’s abusive etc but I’m at a loss with where to go. She doesn’t respond like my other child who is just generally more amenable and easier to manage.

OP posts:
SoftPlaySaturdays · 29/12/2024 17:20

The other thing that seemed to help was modelling how I deal with my own feelings.

"I'm sorry, I feel like shouting just now so I'm going to go and calm down in another room and come back in two minutes."

"I feel sad today, it's not because of you, it's because of work. Maybe I can watch a film or go for a walk to feel better? What do you think?"

"I'm grumpy, I'll just have a quick drink of water, maybe I haven't had enough to drink."

Just stuff you'd do anyway but saying it out loud. Also apologising when I did lose my cool (which happened a fair few times!)

Eventually she started taking herself off to her room to draw when she felt cross, which was huge progress. And also apologising after she shouted at us.

They learn so much from you. Punishing doesn't give them anything to copy.

I don't know what finally clicked for her, but something did.

SushiWarrior · 29/12/2024 17:20

Not sure if it’s helpful (or if you’ve already tried it) but my ds really responded to being given advance warning of what I wanted them to do before he had to do it rather than just springing it on them in the moment.
For example ‘ds in 5 minutes we’re going to stop playing and put our socks on’ or if we’re at the park; ‘ds we’ve got 10 minutes left before we have to leave, shall we see how many times you can go down the slide before the 10 minutes is up? (I would them give a reminder closer to the time ‘ds we’ve got 5/2 minutes left and then we have to go)
he is neurotypical but just giving him advance notice helped stop the whining and tantrums and he knew what to expect.

mikado1 · 29/12/2024 17:21

Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:19

Sorry too many messages to read and reply as I am doing.

re the natural consequences, some
fo them
woyld actually feed into the behaviour as what she wants is to not do the transition. Eg shoes not on we don’t go, that’s a win for her. We have used this approach for lots of clothing related things eg won’t put her coat on fine let her be cold, so we do this already. But what she wants more than anything is to “delay the thing “ whatever that is, so by just allowing her to refuse to wash her hands and ignore her that’s what she wants. She doesn’t care if dinner is delayed because she doesn’t want to sit down and eat dinner anyway.

in terms of how she would react if I removed a toy, I don’t think she’d be happy, but to be honest I don’t really think that’s the point.

No, that's not my point either, it's that she won't magically start to do what you want as a result..

Octonaut4Life · 29/12/2024 17:21

I think it depends on the child and the issues. We do occasional timeouts - my son will actually ask for a timeout sometimes as he knows it's a chance for him to calm down, regulate, and get away from a situation that's upsetting/overwhelming. We try to frame timeouts as positive rather than a punishment and we will often stay with him (if wanted). We also sometimes take a toy away - as another poster has said, never the most special comfort toy but another one, and try to frame it as a natural consequence in a situation where there isn't another obvious consequence to impose, so he gets plenty of warning that if he doesn't do x, then he will lose a toy and he understands that's the consequence. So I think both options can work for kids depending on how they're used. It doesn't happen often though and to be honest he doesn't sound like your child temperament wise so it may or may not work for you.

Original poster
Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:22

@Dollshousedolly but those natural
consequences are what she wants. It would be her winning and rewarding her behaviour.

OP posts:
Octonaut4Life · 29/12/2024 17:23

Something that does work for my son is telling him he doesn't have to misbehave to get attention and offering him some really positive attention as an alternative to misbehaving, have you tried that? So if she doesn't want to eat dinner, say she can have a big cuddle or sit on your lap if she eats dinner, or offer to make it fun and applaud every bite or whatever positive attention she would respond well to.

Original poster
Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:23

@mikado1 maybe, I don’t know. But she doesn’t do it now, and we aren’t getting anywhere with all the gentle crap either.

OP posts:
shreddednips · 29/12/2024 17:24

This was my child, we did 123 magic as I was at the end of my tether, and I think he was at the end of his tether too quite frankly and needed much firmer boundaries. I highly recommend reading the book but the consequence for bad behaviour is a time out (you count to three to give them a chance to change their behaviour, although really serious stuff like hitting gets a time out right away).

With a 'tricky' child I far prefer it, it means you deal with the bad behaviour very quickly and then you can all move on with your day. This means you spend less time managing behaviour which I really think is better for their self-esteem as you actually have time to enjoy yourselves together instead of constant management. He soon got the idea and seems much happier than he did with my gentle parenting attempts. He maybe goes to timeout a couple of times a week now, it took a couple of weeks for his behaviour to improve and to get it down to that frequency. You do have to be a bit creative with how to do time out away from the house- for the first couple of weeks I always went out with someone else so that they could stay with the trolley etc while I took him outside/somewhere quiet, but it soon became unnecessary.

Good luck!

BlueSilverCats · 29/12/2024 17:24

Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:19

Sorry too many messages to read and reply as I am doing.

re the natural consequences, some
fo them
woyld actually feed into the behaviour as what she wants is to not do the transition. Eg shoes not on we don’t go, that’s a win for her. We have used this approach for lots of clothing related things eg won’t put her coat on fine let her be cold, so we do this already. But what she wants more than anything is to “delay the thing “ whatever that is, so by just allowing her to refuse to wash her hands and ignore her that’s what she wants. She doesn’t care if dinner is delayed because she doesn’t want to sit down and eat dinner anyway.

in terms of how she would react if I removed a toy, I don’t think she’d be happy, but to be honest I don’t really think that’s the point.

Is it ALL transitions? Are there any places where she will go happily?

Is she in nursery/childcare setting? Any concerns there?

Tbh, while I see why you need this specific advice, I'd be more focused onto getting her on the pathway to an assessment, especially since you have suspicions already.

LIZS · 29/12/2024 17:24

Have I missed how old she is? Maybe limiting the number of toys and distractions available at any one time, gradually reducing over time and rotating. if you need to go out model the putting on of shoes, coat etc. i suspect taking toys away will just result in more upset and less reason.

Original poster
Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:26

He tried all the positive stuff, lots of ‘love bombing, praising good behaviour, have ensured not stuck in a negative cycle etc

tried the naming emotions, we do the ELSA emotion stuff, I model my own feelings, and yes the apologies and saying sorry etc. tried all that. Tried everything, that’s what people don’t understand

it’s like a pp said if you don’t have a child like that you wouldn’t understand and my other child is an absolute breeze in comparison!

OP posts:
Legaleagle4 · 29/12/2024 17:28

Op don't make her sit down for dinner.

Have tapas style snacks out.
She will definitely learn and come to it in her own time.
My dd was like this and yes many a time tv on or games whilst eating she didn't like colouring.

We have mostly TV dinner in winter except around now and she sits perfectly with perfect manners and we eat mostly at the table in the summer also..

So what I'm saying is don't worry if she can't do it now and you have to force her to it.. No.

She's just not ready we did lots of tapas style snacks so she could pick herself.

Unfortunately she's a square peg at the moment
What is there to be gained by trying to force her into the round hole. I would turn everything on it's head and try and fall in with her

sparepantsandtoothbrush · 29/12/2024 17:28

Is it ALL transitions? Are there any places where she will go happily?

Is she in nursery/childcare setting? Any concerns there

These are the questions I was going to ask. I work with children with PDA and it does sound a possibility (not an excuse for which ever poster said that)

Would be interesting to see if it is all transitions

mikado1 · 29/12/2024 17:28

OP has said she does do advance warnings etc.
It's worth giving it a go OP, it's not my thing, but I am long enough at this now to know different things can work for different kids. It wouldn't have worked for my more challenging one as he'd have felt mortally offended and anything that damaged our relationship was a no as it is the strong relationship that got us through those harder moments. I'd have had a much less compliant and uncooperative child on my hands who'd have felt he was in the right on that one!
(He's super now at 13 but I had to learn what was the right way for him and be creative!)

Original poster
Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:29

@Octonaut4Life yes we do “time in/put” for big emotional outbursts and that actually works quite well with calming down techniques, I stay with her in her room but she’s removed from the situation and we do breathing and stuff when she is ready (can take a while for her to be ready tho)

so actually the big meltdowns aren’t the problem, it’s the daily small ongoing defiance that’s the issue.

OP posts:
Legaleagle4 · 29/12/2024 17:29

Have you bribed transitions with sweets or something she likes

Freesiabritney · 29/12/2024 17:30

My DD is 14 now so my parenting techniques are old fashioned I'm sure, but by God she was a defiant little thing as a pre schooler. I did take away a favourite doll as a punishment eg "oh you're showing Dolly how to be naughty, I will take her with me till you can show her how to be a good girl" or "the remote control car is for big grown up girls and you're acting like a baby, you will get it back when you eat up your lunch like a big girl" etc etc. It did work then when she was about 4/5 and was able to verbally express herself the behaviour turned.

Dramatic · 29/12/2024 17:30

Nespressso · 29/12/2024 17:22

@Dollshousedolly but those natural
consequences are what she wants. It would be her winning and rewarding her behaviour.

So take her out with no shoes on 🤷

SoftPlaySaturdays · 29/12/2024 17:31

Why think it terms of "winning" and "losing"? You are talking as if she will "win" and you will therefore "lose" but I don't know that that's a helpful way to think of it.

You might be surprised. If she won't sit down to dinner and the rest of you do so calmly without her, without a battle, she might not actually act like she has "won" - she might actually be really upset.

Mine was like this. It seemed like giving in and "losing" to disengage, but she didn't actually want the thing she seemed to be fighting for at all. If we started dinner without her after all, she was distraught.

I would take all power struggle away for a while (apart from safety issues like not running into the road or something life threatening).

OliveLeader · 29/12/2024 17:33

I don’t think toy removal is going to work in the situations you describe. Removing toys can be a suitable consequence when the behaviour that needs corrected relates to the toy (so I will remove a toy from my son if he keeps throwing it, for example) but removing a toy because she won’t get dressed or whatever it is is arbitrary and she won’t connect the punishment with the behaviour you want to correct. The consequence has to be immediate and related to the issue. So if the problem is that she won’t put her shoes on, the consequence is that she is carried out to the car with no shoes on. If she won’t sit and eat her dinner, it gets put away and she has to wait for the next time you usually offer food (so next meal or routine snack).

shreddednips · 29/12/2024 17:34

SoftPlaySaturdays · 29/12/2024 17:20

The other thing that seemed to help was modelling how I deal with my own feelings.

"I'm sorry, I feel like shouting just now so I'm going to go and calm down in another room and come back in two minutes."

"I feel sad today, it's not because of you, it's because of work. Maybe I can watch a film or go for a walk to feel better? What do you think?"

"I'm grumpy, I'll just have a quick drink of water, maybe I haven't had enough to drink."

Just stuff you'd do anyway but saying it out loud. Also apologising when I did lose my cool (which happened a fair few times!)

Eventually she started taking herself off to her room to draw when she felt cross, which was huge progress. And also apologising after she shouted at us.

They learn so much from you. Punishing doesn't give them anything to copy.

I don't know what finally clicked for her, but something did.

I agree with this, we used time out but don't assume that she knows how to manage negative feelings. I did a lot of this type of modelling and also pointing out some things that I thought would be obvious, like the fact that you don't HAVE to do things just because you have the urge. Sometimes, the idea to do something that's wrong will cross your mind. This happens to everyone but you have to do something to stop yourself! This was a revelation to my DS, who then went through a phase of saying things aloud like 'I'm feeling like it would be fun to throw this hard object down the stairs, but I know I'll get in trouble, so I need to stop and play with my Lego instead'. Resisting urges to do something daft/dangerous was something I had to intensively teach.

That said, I have found that the best time to do this teaching is when all is calm, not when we're in the thick of a silly mood/tantrum/crossness.

BlueSilverCats · 29/12/2024 17:38

SoftPlaySaturdays · 29/12/2024 17:31

Why think it terms of "winning" and "losing"? You are talking as if she will "win" and you will therefore "lose" but I don't know that that's a helpful way to think of it.

You might be surprised. If she won't sit down to dinner and the rest of you do so calmly without her, without a battle, she might not actually act like she has "won" - she might actually be really upset.

Mine was like this. It seemed like giving in and "losing" to disengage, but she didn't actually want the thing she seemed to be fighting for at all. If we started dinner without her after all, she was distraught.

I would take all power struggle away for a while (apart from safety issues like not running into the road or something life threatening).

Sadly, that only works if the kid actually cares about missing out/not doing the thing. Some children don't, and are too focused on the moment to even realise they "missed" out on something and that that's a bad thing. While it's not a winning/losing thing, all they know is that whatever they're doing is/feels nice, they can keep doing the nice thing and that holds all their focus, until they are ready to move to the next thing.

MrsCarson · 29/12/2024 17:38

You do what works for your child, if you need to remove toys do it.
I did use to remove any toy being used to hurt anyone else, it went into time out on the top of the fridge and not mention them again. When there was good behaviour (never asked for by me for the return of toys) I would just add the toys back onto the shelf.
If time out or time in works just do it.
All kids have something they value, could be time in the park, or a trip to a coffee shop, anything. I used to refuse to take them, if behaviour was very poor.
I used to have trouble leaving fun activities I used the count down thing, then on the last countdown, I'd ask if they liked it here. They usually said yes, so I said if you want to come back we have to leave right now, if you can't leave after having fun we won't come back again. Sounds mean, I only used it a few times ever. Ds started to leave fun stuff easier once he knew I meant it. He was probably 4 at the time.

CatsMagic · 29/12/2024 17:38

SoftPlaySaturdays · 29/12/2024 17:20

The other thing that seemed to help was modelling how I deal with my own feelings.

"I'm sorry, I feel like shouting just now so I'm going to go and calm down in another room and come back in two minutes."

"I feel sad today, it's not because of you, it's because of work. Maybe I can watch a film or go for a walk to feel better? What do you think?"

"I'm grumpy, I'll just have a quick drink of water, maybe I haven't had enough to drink."

Just stuff you'd do anyway but saying it out loud. Also apologising when I did lose my cool (which happened a fair few times!)

Eventually she started taking herself off to her room to draw when she felt cross, which was huge progress. And also apologising after she shouted at us.

They learn so much from you. Punishing doesn't give them anything to copy.

I don't know what finally clicked for her, but something did.

This is fantastic advice.

stargirl1701 · 29/12/2024 17:39

My 12 year old was the same. It is autism with her. I did change to authoritarian parenting a couple of years ago after trying everything else (as you have). Our family life has been far better since then because she knows any violence towards us means she will be in her room for the rest of the day. She is 12 though not 4.

Things we did do earlier that helped were stopping adult verbal instructions alongside a visual TT (I used Boardmaker symbols instead), not giving any more than 5min advance warning (which I though was right but CAMHS said was making anxiety worse) and trying to use gross motor activity to pre-empt meltdowns (cycling and trampoline).

We did some great training along the way with OT, SaLT and CAMHS. Get onto the insane waiting lists ASAP!