Is taking toys away acceptable discipline?

[Nespressso]

I’m going to preface this by saying I HAVE READ THE FOLLOWING:
how to talk so kids will listen
explosive child
janet lansbury
big little feelings/ transforming toddlerhood/ dr Becky goodonside etc on insta
sensitive child

so please don’t just say “have you tried offering choices or making it a game?” I have tried all of this, and found none of it works on my 4yo, who is just fucking difficult. I’m not a useless parent as my other child is not at all like this, and is much easier to manage.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

problems mainly with playing up (refusing, whining, writhing about) when asked to do ANYTHING, so mainly transitions and initiating tasks (eg go and wash hands, get your socks on, etc) we already do
all the prep work for transitions (eg daily routine, warnings for time (5 mins, 1 min etc) picture chart routines. Tried it all. What do we do when she still messed about? What sanction / punishment for bad behaviour?

we do all the scaffolding, rewards, validating feelings, etc etc and it’s all carrot and no stick. What metaphorical stick do people actually use? (Obviously I’m not suggesting physical punishment) but I am lost. I have tried all the good stuff and hard work and it’s not helped one bit. But I feel the minute anyone suggests putting their child into time out they are told it’s abusive etc but I’m at a loss with where to go. She doesn’t respond like my other child who is just generally more amenable and easier to manage.

If she wakes at night, she gets offered a banana only. She will tolerate bananas but doesn’t particularly enjoy them so it seems a good option as she wouldn’t want out of choice. Actually she will then refuse her breakfast.

you say she won’t go hungry but actually some children have a force of will stronger than hunger. She then becomes so dysregulated and upset she will have a meltdown, which will further reduce hunger pangs, but she will struggle to get out of it as she hangry.

If she has PDA then
a) it isn't her 'winning' and you 'losing', it is you choosing to allow her more autonomy to help meet her needs, and support her not to become dysregulated (which is no fun for either of you).
and
b) you might not actually be able to do all the things you want to (with her involved) or have the things that you do manage to do together look the way you hoped. If she isn't physically capable of doing those things then you eventually have to find a way to make your peace with that. She may be able to do more if she has a lower stress life overall and as she gets older - but on some things, she might not ever do it.

I don't think punishments will help your situation. Some of her behaviour sounds as though it could be rooted in anxiety, some of it may be habit, some of it may be attention seeking (she knows she will get your attention that way and hasn't learned there are other/better ways). I also wonder if she is picking up on your exasperation or annoyance?

In general, I would try to reframe your interactions with her. Try not to think of them as battles to be "won" or "lost." Instead think about the process and the outcome. What do you care about most, process or outcome? In other words, do you want her to feed herself (process) or do you want her to eat her dinner (outcome)? I'm not saying that one is more important than the other, just that your approach may be different based on what you want to focus on. If the answer is that both things are equally important, then that would require a different approach too.

If bananas are ok but boring then they are fine to use like that as something she can have if she hasn’t eaten her other food. They are pretty healthy better than the toast we usually defaulted to

My son is similar to your daughter. The only thing that works for me to deal with things and not ruin the whole day is the threat of losing screen time. I say he'll lose 10 minutes if he doesn't... and then if he likes it I make sure I him wait those minutes when he wants screen. I'd say if the threat of losing time with a toy would work then do it (obvs not including anything cruel like losing a special toy/comfort toy at bedtime).
It's so exhausting and relentless. The 'gentle' stuff sometimes doesn't cut it and it's unfair on the rest of the family to let one person dominate/ruin things.

Yes we do the “boots or trainers” “coat or cardigan” we also just say “time to put your shoes on”. We don’t present anything as a choice unless it genuinely is. So she often chooses where we will have lunch but we never say “do you want to get your shoes on now” because you are basically saying it’s fine to say no.

Let her skip a meal, she’ll be fine but she also knows it’s something that gives her power. It’s totally normal for children to be in conflict with their parents for control. Some kids are harder than others, yours sounds like mine. I was exhausted before the day started because I knew it would be every little thing. Getting out of bed, bathroom, teeth brushing, hair, clothes, finishing breakfast. Everywhere there could be conflict mine managed to find it.

You are made to feel you have to follow a parenting ethos to get it “right” otherwise you will damage your kids. But for most kids firm boundaries and lots of love is exactly what they need, it’s just how firm you have to be depends on the child.

Another thing we found helpful was a timer. We got a timer that uses colour and we would set it for say ten minutes so she had notice. She definitely struggled with transitions.

If she is scared/anxious at school she may mask by basically being as quiet and unobtrusive as possible to try to avoid attracting attention, rather than kicking up a fuss. You'd need to actually watch her in class and look in all her books to see if she is spending a lot of time quietly not working or not - I wouldn't assume that a teacher would necessarily pick that up (or certainly not for a lot longer than you might expect), especially if she is bright enough to absorb enough from the talking parts of the lesson to approximately answer a question if asked.

I also have a challenging child with whom
I lose my temper far more often than I’d like. He often just won’t listen and does
things he very well knows he’s not allowed to. I struggle with the same questions as you. But for the times when we’re about to leave for something he likes but he won’t get dressed, I say “I won’t be chasing you for this at all. If you won’t get dressed we won’t go”. For this particular scenario this does the trick. Now just need to tackle
all the remaining 1000 ones 😁

I actually find timeout works really well for defiance. It's immediate and systematic and peaceful, and the outcome is that DC will stop being defiant.
However, each child is different.

Let her go through it, sometimes they need to just wind themselves up and then wind themselves down again. DD had a horrible temper and would need some time to calm down by herself and I was ready with a hug. You can wait for her to wear herself out and then ask if she’s hungry. You don’t need to fix it. Wait till she’s calm again and then talk about it ( very short to the point and constructive, not a telling off) and have a hug.

You can tie yourself in knots trying to read all the books and do everything 'right'.
I don't agree with hurting, frightening or humiliating children but I do think it's fine to be firm and have consequences.
I never took toys because I don't think it would work with my children, but I did use the naughty step sometimes and often use screen time - you need to behave well/cooperate to get screen time later and I will definitely warn mine if they don't stop it this minute the ipad is going away for the day.

Hi OP,

I'm really sorry to hear how difficult it is. That really does sound so hard.

The only thing that I can think of is a girl that my Mum used to tutor, who also had a will of iron. My Mum found her extraordinarily difficult to get on with. The girl went on to be a group leader at MIT. So there is hope.

Good luck there.

Have you ever tried choices?

"So DD we are leaving in 5 minutes. Do you want your shoes on first or to brush your teeth first?"

Some people really struggle with demands and not feeling in control.

The demand you need her to manage is being ready to go out. How that happens doesn't really matter - you don't need to win all battles to win the war!

If it is PDA they can mask at school, certainly in younger years. However once you get to secondary and the demands increase the wheels fall off spectacularly.

with PDA demands, even things like being hungry and need to eat activate the nervous system into a fight or flight response. They are effectively having panic attacks when they are “being defiant”.

Being stricter will only make it worse and ultimately will not work with a PDA child, no amount of reward or punishment threat will override their need for autonomy in that moment. Even when it is something they actually want to do and not doing it is to their detriment.

I would look at doing one of the online sessions on PDA to find out more and try out those techniques to see if they are a better fit. The PDA society are running an online session on 9th January.

Focus on a lot of positive time together, bonding and attachment.
So instead of rewards, praise, etc just focus on quality time together, listening to her, watching her play/ draw, hugs and kisses.

We all struggle to listen to somebody when

1. We don't have a healthy, strong attachment to them
2. We feel like we don't have a say

Deal with situations one by one. Rewards/ punishments only bring in resentment.
She doesn't want to put her shoes on- you take the shoe and put it on her (try speaking with a calming voice to get her on board to trust your decision, but show her you're the one in charge, and it's your job to make sure she wears her shoes outside; do not let it become a power battle.)
Also do try silliness, distraction, playfulness, and pick your battles.
But if you have done all the 'investment' in way of time spent together having fun, they tend to resist you less.

I mostly am a “gentle parent,” but I do take away toys (never the most special ones) for a day or two after a warning as a consequence for “bad behaviour.” It works extremely well with my child.

Choices and consequences.
" Do you want to put your shoes or your coat on first?"....puts coat on but won't put shoes on..." ok, so if you don't put your shoes in then you can't go to xxxx"
Walk away and leave her to it.
I do believe in time out- it's not humiliating, it gives them chance, on their own, away from the situation, to think about what's happening and what they want to happen.

you Have my empathy op my 5 year old is the same
calm all day Xmas day until we all sat down to eat and he threw a epic wobbler and threw his arms across my dinner preventing me from eating u til I made him chicken nuggets ( I was so upset I quickly air fried three nuggets. Which calmed him , he then sat for 2 and ran off never eating the fucking nuggets !!
everything and I mean everything is hard work getting dressed, getting in the car, getting out the car , going into a hop , then leaving the shop
went to McDonald’s for a play and was mortified when it took an hour to get him out of the play cube ( I couldn’t grab him because as I went one way he ran around to where I could not get him and I just had to wait for him to get bored )
only way I can cope it to use pda strategies
we never ask him to put shoes or coat on , we just hold them in his general direction having made upbeat hints about where we are going for past hour
never any pressure regarding eating , clothing or participating , we have travelled in the car often with no seatbelt and regularly go to school or bed with teeth not cleaned

it’s fucking soul sucking and endlessly repetitive
all I know is crying (me), bleeding ( yes I’ve been hit in the face and bled) begging shouting or threats have ZERO effect

I hear you saying that other people's children aren't as difficult as yours and we can't understand. It's really hard to tell over the internet, but I will say that from your description mine was worse than yours at her peak. I could be 100% wrong, absolutely, but all I can really say is what happened to work for us.

Who knows what made it click, really, but escalating and punishments didn't work for us with our particular child.

Most of it was just time and ability to articulate what she wanted. Some of it was us modelling, as I said (maybe). Some of it was picking our battles. Some of it was a book called "Why do you do that?", which she found fascinating.

Some of it was natural consequences. If you mess about, you've used up all the time for TV before school - oh well, maybe tomorrow. If you won't brush your teeth and scream at me for half an hour, you've used up story time - oh well, lights off straight away then. Not "be good or I won't read you a story" or "be good or there's no screen time", but just, oops, time's up, try again tomorrow.

Some of it was also trying to ignore phases. We had a loooong phase where we could only get her dressed in front of the TV. I found this so embarrassing and felt I was failing, but it did end naturally without me having to do anything about it. I'm glad we didn't fight her and just went with it, because at the end of the day it wasn't a lifelong habit we were instilling.

If she has PDA, then that's a different kettle of fish, but other posters have given good advice.

I agree with the above re time out.

It takes 2 to argue. You are removing yourself from the situation so you don't keep arguing with them and they don't have anyone to argue with.

I remember as a child when my mum would say "fine" and walk away that I'd sit there and the only conclusion to solve it I could come to was to do the simple thing she asked!

I've worked with children for over twenty years and have 3 children one who has adhd and one who is autistic.

You need to adjust your expectations to accept the child you have rather than the one you want. You also need to let go of trying to be in charge/have the power. You're just battling with your self.

With regards to your child. Stop disciplining every little thing. Pick a couple of issues you want to focus on. Break them down as small as possible and work on them a bit at a time. Have one discipline, I personally like time out as it offers time to reset but yes stay with her and focus on role modeling calming behaviour. Try to role model the behaviour you want in day to day life and with your partner. Don't expect more than she's capable of or you're just setting her up to fail.

If you are really concerned request a paediatrician referral it could be a neuro diversity

One of my children was like this. He's an adult now. Diagnosed in teens as autistic. I don't really know about PDA but I suspect this is involved. Everything was a battle. Things still are, but less so. Very little worked, he held onto feelings of injustice for days, weeks, months. Being strict didn't work or change anything, and often made things worse. For example taking away a toy wouldn't make sense to him and he couldn't get over it, so we stopped that. I didn't know what I was doing, was exhausted, and really don't know what to suggest. One thing that helped was to stop insisting he eat dinner at the table with us, and just adapting to him, but I only really recognised this when he was much older. I did take him out without his shoes on once in the rain when he refused to put them on and he never did that again, but transitioning was and still is awful. The eating thing is difficult as he only recognised the hunger and thirst signs when he was much older, which I never understood at the time, but is quite common for autistic people. Things went in around two months cycles where things were so hard but then naturally had a slight improvement for a week or so, where I got a bit of energy back. I think the best suggestion I can offer is trying to find other parents going through similar. Unfortunately a lot of people, including "professionals" (I now hate that term!) just don't get it, and worse than not getting it, they think they do!

Excellent post, I agree it took me a long time to realise I need to accept the child I have. I have four children and I'm sure nature is far stronger than nurture.

This.

If the task is clear up your toys before bed and they refuse. that's fine but mummy is cleaning them up and putting them away in the garage for a day.

I don't specficially use the term time out but not dissimilar. When being violent he was removed from the room and walked away. With no attention this iolence ended pretty quick. Every " gentle parenting" approach resulted in escalation as he was getting attention.

If he is not listening then sit on the sofa ( not playing with toys or getting attention) untill he was ready to do as I asked or use his words to talk to me not whinging at me.

Repeatly asking for something in a whiny voice means there's a delay in him getting it. So example

Child " can I have my advent calander chocolate"
Answer " after lunch"

Repeated asking / whining means a warning eg "if you keep asking then you won't get it till 2 o clock" and keep pushing back time every time they ask. Never make a threat you won't carry out. So never santa won't bring you toys but smaller things like if you can't use your listening ears we won't go to soft play is reasonable

Sympathy OP. I've had two 4 year olds and another to come. I've found it an extremely difficult age with both kids, who are quite different in personality. People bang on about terrible twos but three and four have been the most challenging for me. They have so much going on, particularly if they have just started school.

Niether of mine have any additional needs but at that age would have a tantrum or start squealing at every single request. It's agony. I was very firm tbh as nothing else worked (and neither did this really but it caused the least drama and allowed the most things to get done!).

If they threw themselves on the floor when it was time to go out then we'd leave the house without their shoes and coat on, if they didn't want to eat what I cooked they were offered toast or cereal otherwise they were ignored while everyone else ate, if they didn't want to get a bath then straight to bed with face washed and no story etc. So immediate (hopefully) proportionate consequences for actions.

Time out never ever worked as they wouldn't go to time out or stay in it without physically being put in and held in it which didn't feel right. Being extremely gentle and explaining everything didn't change their behaviour at all and absolutely exhausted and infuriated me. So I felt like every approach failed and we just did what we could to get through it.

Of course for some kids there is more too it and they need a different approach. But for mine it was just a very, very challenging phase that passed.