Is taking toys away acceptable discipline?

[Nespressso]

I’m going to preface this by saying I HAVE READ THE FOLLOWING:
how to talk so kids will listen
explosive child
janet lansbury
big little feelings/ transforming toddlerhood/ dr Becky goodonside etc on insta
sensitive child

so please don’t just say “have you tried offering choices or making it a game?” I have tried all of this, and found none of it works on my 4yo, who is just fucking difficult. I’m not a useless parent as my other child is not at all like this, and is much easier to manage.

basically I’ve tried all of the above books and have come back full circle to maybe she needs stricter discipline as everything we have tried so far has not worked. However everyone now says parents shouldn’t do time outs or remove toys, so what on earth am I allowed to do? We aren’t allowed to shout, so what on earth do you do with a child where all the soft stuff DOESNT WORK

problems mainly with playing up (refusing, whining, writhing about) when asked to do ANYTHING, so mainly transitions and initiating tasks (eg go and wash hands, get your socks on, etc) we already do
all the prep work for transitions (eg daily routine, warnings for time (5 mins, 1 min etc) picture chart routines. Tried it all. What do we do when she still messed about? What sanction / punishment for bad behaviour?

we do all the scaffolding, rewards, validating feelings, etc etc and it’s all carrot and no stick. What metaphorical stick do people actually use? (Obviously I’m not suggesting physical punishment) but I am lost. I have tried all the good stuff and hard work and it’s not helped one bit. But I feel the minute anyone suggests putting their child into time out they are told it’s abusive etc but I’m at a loss with where to go. She doesn’t respond like my other child who is just generally more amenable and easier to manage.

My DS9 is autistic and can be quite demand avoidant. He really struggles with sitting at the table to eat at home but will do so at school. Tbh it's a battle we don't get into.

Sounds tough @Nespressso - I hear from a lot of young work colleagues at the moment with 4 year olds - similar stories of extreme defiance and tantrums. Type of behaviour you would expect from 2 year olds. My neighbours 4 yo is the same - I can hear the tantrums all the time - mum is exhausted and scared of him a bit. He rules the roost.

i wonder if it’s something to do with lockdown? Lack of people around and other young children to model behaviour?

On the positive your DD is good in school. So she knows how to behave.
It feels like most things people suggest you’re doing or feel won’t work but there is a lot of good advice on here.
I think Tanya Byron is a genius and her House of Tiny Tearaways on YouTube gives some great examples of parenting too.

Just to add, a lot of people do not get it. Our son is especially resistant to going to sleep and would cry/scream for hours at a time. We ended up driving him out most nights (even once he was at school). The paediatrician said at one point, 'stop that and key him cry' not really understanding he would cry for hours. And we have another child/neighbours/sanity. As if we WANTED to drive out every frigging night!

I have a very similar child. It is exhausting. We are also lucky that it was not our first child, so we could tell that it was not the parenting, but he couldn't (rather than wouldn't) 'behave' ie. do what he was told especially in transitions. DS has now been diagnosed as autistic. If you think that might apply, here is some things that worked for us.

Keep with the 'name it to tame it' for emotions, it might not work by the time she is 5 years old or even 7 years but my ds is 9 now and it's really showing that we've been consistent with that.

In the meantime, some things that helped us to actually leave the house aged 4...

• declarative language eg. 'blue trainers are here' and wait for him to present himself for shoes
• humour - make everything a joke and do the transition task while we laugh
• being super clear about where we were going, but not immediately before leaving. We use a timetable on the wall but I appreciate your DD might not be able to read that yet.
• verbalising that you understand they are trying and finding it hard. This got thrown back in our face for a few years but has settled in now.
• ignoring all advice from anyone who isn't parenting neurodivergence. This is not meant to be rude to anyone posting here, but it's like chalk and cheese.

Definitely sounds ND. My DSS is nearly 10 and almost definitely has PDA and ADHD. Following GrowNow ADHD on Instagram has been great for me as helped me to realise that he was actively looking for an argument to get stimulation, but didn’t know that’s what he was doing. Related consequences are great but they aren’t always possible. So yes, we absolutely remove toys and in a way it is a related consequence, as he is seeking stimulation and this leads to the opposite, less fun things to stimulate him. It isn’t ideal and I don’t parent my 3yo the same way but it is the only thing that stops the behaviour from escalating and he feels far worse about himself if he escalates and damages property/gets aggressive. Same with sending him to his room (though yours is too little). It’s to remove me as the stimulation and give him a chance to calm down, not a punishment, and he knows it.

I will say that a degree of this is obviously normal, my 3.5yo is at her most defiant and some days I am so fed up, but there is usually a clear reason when she gets defiant over everything, even if she would want something normally (overtired, hungry etc.)

Also, if they tend to behave well out of the house, use that. If my 3yo is mucking about refusing to get ready, I say she will have to explain to the lady in the office why her brother is late for school. Same for homework for the older one, he will have to tell his teacher in front of me why he hasn’t done it. Not saying this in an angry way, but in a way that highlights there is a consequence and I won’t be protecting them from it if they won’t accept my help to get it done.
it’s hard. But you will find ways.

OP, I don't think there's anything wrong with a time out or removing a toy/tv time etc as long as DD can make the connection between the behaviour and the consequence - all children are different and only you know your DD well enough to know if she will grasp this.

For putting on shoes, I wouldn't ask 'can you put shoes on now' I would get the shoes and say 'time to get shoes on' and then sit her on the step or chair or whatever and physically put her shoes on. Ignore whining, crying, twisting away etc and just concentrate on getting the shoes on.

Washing hands before dinner - just get a warm damp flannel and clean her hands - again don't ask just say 'clean hands before dinner' and then clean them. Ignore lying on the floor, whining etc and just get the job done. Keep calm and don't get involved in any discussion or explanation.

Not sitting at the table - Ignore any whining or arguing, give her 10 minutes to get up and join you at the table and if she doesn't, clear her food away and remove her to another room and then get on with your meal. Chat amongst yourselves and ignore her behaviour. Praise your other child/ren for sitting nicely and eating.

Praise the good and ignore the bad as much as possible. Keep calm and chat cheerily, sometimes distraction works! Finally don't ask, tell - not please put your shoes on, just shoes on now and put them on.

Generally I would say this is good advice. But it does depend on the child. Many children with ADHD want the stimulation of an adult getting involved with things they can do for themselves so fight it, and physically getting involved gives them that so actually reinforces having the strop about it.

Like with my toddler, offering a choice rather than asking her to put her shoes on (ie which one does she want to wear) is much more effective, but my DSS would use any discussion as a way to delay/go on a wind up so I use minimal instructions, don’t engage and then just go to leave - that works for him.

Kids - who’d have em hey?

Why can’t you take toys away for bad behaviour? She needs to learn consequences

There are a multitude of reasons. It is lazy and ineffective parenting - you feel in control and so feel as though you’ve done something good to resolve the situation by punishing, but actually all you’ve done is stifle your child’s growth and fracture your relationship that little bit more.

Taking toys away may temporarily stop the behaviour in the short term, but it doesn’t actually teach the child why it’s wrong or how to behave appropriately in the future.

It creates negative emotions and thus feelings of insecurity and fear, which can escalate the situation.

Thr majority of the time, it doesn’t even make sense. It’s not a natural or logical consequence, and therefore the child does not learn why we don’t jump on the sofa if you take their toys away.

No parent should rule by fear. A child should not behave because they’re scared of their parent taking their things away from them. They should behave because that’s the right thing to do.

I'd been an infant school teacher for a good decade before I had my own children, and yep, gentle parenting wasn't ever going to be my style. I think I just got used to being obeyed and ruling the roost. ;)
I'm very much like it or lump it in my parenting style.
Don't want to wear a coat? Fine, then be cold, but we're going now. And if I have to pick you up then so be it.
Won't sit at the table? Fine, but your dinner is getting cold, I've no plans to reheat it and there won't be anything else until the next meal.

And that is exactly why children behave the way they do and have no respect

@Nespressso I haven't read the whole thread but one of mine is like this and I have felt at the end of my tether with him so many times.
The things that work for us (I did a quick skim and I don't think you said you'd tried this so mentioning in case it helps)...
In our case, taking things away and getting cross just escalates the situation.

1. Is there anything she loves? Mine loves being read to, and we use that as a calming reward - 'if you do what I'm asking I'll read to you while you do it'. If he stops doing up his shoes, I put my finger in the place and wait for him to start before I start reading again.
2. Making it mildly competitive but most of all fun bypasses off a LOT of the triggers to these situations for us. Obvious ones like 'lets see who can put their shoes on fastest' don't really work for us, he's whiny and he doesn't care who is fastest. Things like 'lets trick daddy, I'll sound really cross that you're not getting ready and you do it really fast and hide by the door to jump out and surprise him' is often a winner in our house, we also had a score card outside the bathroom for who was right about him needing the loo. I say I think he needs the loo and he says he doesn't, so has to prove it by sitting on the loo. Or he says he does so he can get his tick, ha! Everyone who is right gets a tick on the chart and whoever gets the most ticks at the end of the week gets a mini bag of haribo.

Incorrect. What you are referring to is permissive parenting. I am discussing authoritative parenting.

Before you criticise something you really should understand what you’re talking about.

Having brought up 3 children, I absolutely know what I am
talking about

Hi OP, I'm a mum to a child with autism who has a pda profile and yours sounds very similar. The one example that stuck out for me was her saying she can't stand up - this is really common with pdaers.

Have you joined any pda groups on fb or looked at the pda society website?

I know you mention about what realistically isn't right but if she does have a pda profile, you'll need to change that way of thinking and look deeper into the why and how to work with that.

I'd also recommend the declarative language book, which is great for kids with a pda profile.

Feel free to message me if you wish.

Bringing up three children doesn’t mean you know what you are talking about. Anyone can say that.

Being educated and up to date on the latest research and evidence on what works to raise emotionally healthy and happy children means you know what you are talking about.

I hear you, @Nespressso. I have a difficult 4yo too, and he does not give a monkey's about any of the stuff the books suggest.

Also, I feel like advice in books (& on here) exists in this bubble of infinite time - "just say DC needs to do X before he can do Y" or "just ignore DC until they stop/calm down" As if that hasn't occured to you or as if you don't have anything going on in life that can't wait for a couple of hours without consequence.

In the real world, there are trains to catch, there are jobs and schools and appointments to get to, there are other people who need to go to bed or eat or bathe or play or read or get to clubs and hobbies or socialise. You don't always have time to reason with a stubborn 4 yo about the merits of wearing shoes!

I have previously said "we are leaving at 8:25 and you can either have your shoes and socks on or you will go barefoot" and then taken him outside with bare feet when he still kept taking his shoes and socks off. He was cold and uncomfortable for about 10 seconds then he wanted his shoes, but this was much quicker ad more effective than trying to reason with him.

I have taken away toys, and tv time, I've cancelled park trips or going to a youth club he likes. I do (occasionally) raise my voice, but usually to say "CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THIS VOLUME?" and then repeat my question/instruction.

I have also set my clocks 10 minutes fast as "we should be there by now" seems more effective than "we need to leave in 10/5/3/1 minute".

No other advice, but bags of sympathy! Good luck 🍀

@MinnieBalloon I don’t get how taking away a toy is raising a child to fear you. I don’t mean randomly doing it in a mean way but if there are rules like if you do X serious thing then you don’t get your favourite toy for a while. If that’s known to the child and they would expect that consequence if they do that action then I don’t get why that’s bad but some “natural consequence” is better. In the real world as an adult or child if you hit a peer sometimes the natural consequence is you get hit back but obviously that’s not the right way to deal with anyone. Children are often sheltered from logical or natural outcomes in life eg I walk on the car side on the pavement and hold my son’s hand as he’s not as road savvy as me and might get hurt.

So if a child is jumping on the sofa as in your example what is the logical or natural thing to do? Explain to them that they could damage the sofa? That works on unruly young children? Besides I’m sure in most cases that’s what parents are saying in the first instance but the child isn’t bothered. Move them from the sofa but if they resist and fight to go back on it? Time out in another room? but then they could be just as upset about that.

If she wont put shoes on we wait. i just wait silently while vaguely engaged in something else (packing day bag or whatever)
Anything she picks up or tries to entertains herself with is removed without much chat beyond "you need to put your shoes on"

ive found this strategy works well. My LB wants to play with me, not put his shoes on, get dressed etc. so sort of ignoring him and not engaging beyond saying ‘you need to put your X on’ every time he talks to me means he very quickly does what I’ve asked because he hates me not engaging with him.

Can't recommend incredible years book enough. Iv 3 rather stubborn adhd kids (now teens) and did the course and found it amazing. Its rather cheesy american examples but the content is brilliant. You can buy book second hand or form local library.

I'm a firm fan of timeouts and consequences.

www.audible.co.uk/pd/The-Incredible-Years-Troubleshooting-Guide-for-Parents-of-Children-Aged-3-8-Years-Audiobook/B0D9CH5YD4?overrideBaseCountry=true&bp_o=true&source_code=PS1PP30DTRIAL453022924008Z&ipRedirectOverride=true&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4fi7BhC5ARIsAEV1Yib_O7rOz2mIYTfckIYt0eNMqCBSijPuai7qV3Ivjy0eOuI-m41msn0aAjTpEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.instagram.com/drchelsey_parenting?igsh=MTk2aXhsNTBjaHo3Zw==

This is meant to be good. It would have helped me hugely as a child.

When you take a toy from a child for a behaviour not related to it, it makes absolutely no sense to them and they don’t learn why we shouldn’t behave like that. They only learn not to do X out of fear their toys will get taken away.

This means the behaviour will reoccur, they are more likely to hide what they are doing and be sneaky, and aren’t actually learning why they shouldn’t do X. Just that they shouldn’t do X because they’ll lose their access to their toy.

In the example of the sofa, I would tell them sofas are for sitting on. If we can’t sit on the sofa, then we will need to get off the sofa, and I would physically remove them from it.

It’s okay for them to be upset about that. We aren’t trying to stop them being upset. What we do then is coregulate them through it. Having and holding appropriate boundaries and helping them through any upset related to those boundaries is so important.

Firstly i try to avoid stressful situations. I know putting shoes on and doing teeth takes 10 minutes but unless I am doing it for DC, it will be strung out for 30 minutes, so I ask them to do those tasks 30 minutes early, so that they can have a stress free dither and I just hustle through in the last 5 mins.

Secondly, you're the adult, of course you can sanction your child. We did time out all the time and consequently we have an exceptionally well behaved child who knows what we say goes.

Lastly, we went with natural consequences and choices and followed through. Don't want to wear shoes? Fine, don't come. Won't brush your teeth, ok, I'll do it for you but I won't make it fun and you wont have fun foods like chocolate tomorrow. Won't stand up? You must be tired, we're leaving to go home so you can go to bed.

Basically they are finding a boundary and once they know that what you say goes and you get through this stage it will be a breeze.

My little one is the same age, super challenging and ive been at my wits end. I have another that's an absolute angel who we've only ever 'gentle parented'. The contrast is black and white. Like you, I've resorted to every type of punishment with my challenging child and found most things ineffective. They're just wilful and stubborn! This is what i've found has worked so far:

Re food, every dinner time is a battle. It's finally getting better (overall as the behaviour overall is less stuck in a negative cycle of tears and anger on both sides) but here's what started to work for us:

• Reverse psychology. Put their plate down in usual spot when you all sit down. Don't acknowledge them specifically and say 'this plate im saving for myself to eat later. NO ONE is to eat anything from this plate at all. I can't wait to eat it later tonight and NO ONE had better sneakily eat from this plate!' The intrigue will be too much to bear and it's likely they'll try a spoonful. If they do, pretend you don't notice in the moment but then say 'OH where has that food gone!' in a smiley, shocked voice.... keep repeating until they get fed up and finish eating. My one laughs as they do it and by about the 3rd bite, we acknowledge and say 'DONT you dare be so cheeky to eat mummy's second dinner for later!' (with a smile etc).
• If above doesnt work, set up a tablet (TURNED OFF) in front of their dinner plate and promise them 5 mins of thier favourite show AFTER dinner, if they eat 10 spoonfuls of dinner. They might haggle for 5 bites instead, but whatever - it's a start.
• Resort to 'would you like to sit on mummys lap and i'll feed you whilst i cuddle you?' This always wins and gets most of the food in.

I realise none of these ways are perfect for a 4 year old (mine is 4.5) and it's not learning 'appropriate dinner time behaviour' but in saying that, my child DOES behaviour perfectly in restaurants and doesnt need any of these tricks then. They'll simply play with their lego until food arrives and then they'll eat like a well behaved child. It's like they switch on devil mode for home time only!

Re the aggro of asking them to please put on shoes, tidy away toys etc. Its like talking to a wall but i've found that since i started praising them it works (sometimes...). For example.

'Darling would you put that toy away because i've noticed you're the best at tidying up!'. 'Put your shoes on, you're the fastest child i've seen at putting shoes on' etc...

Finally this one poem popped up online and ive stuck it everywhere purely to help me to cope when it's all too much (daily) with my stubborn one. As soon as they start testing me, i automatically think 'kindness, kindness, kindness' (as programmed by this poem!). Helps me not to lose my head as quickly

Let kindness guide your voice today,
For harsh words leave wounds that stay.
Speak with love to those who're small,
Their hearts are pure, they hear it all.
To youth whose path is steep and long,
Offer words that make them strong.
Life gives them battles yet to face;
Let your voice be their safe place.
For those whose twilight years draw near,
Whose stories deserve a gentle ear,
Speak softly of the life they've known,
Each word a comfort freely shown.
And to those who've lost their way,
Remember mercy as you say
The words that might just lead them home—
No soul should wander lost, alone.
For gentle words, like morning dew,
Touch hearts and make the world anew.
These whispers soft, these moments kind,
Leave ripples in the streams of time.

We will have to agree to disagree. You have to teach each child differently according their nature and personality