To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Apologies, I must have missed that (though I was asking Ava).

I can’t scroll back so many pages do find them. I guess if they were that awful fo me, I’d have spotted them 🤷‍♀️

You dont have any understanding yourself! You only see the parts you want to see!
What about all the trans people who are not relieved and deeply regret their bodily modifications? Detransitioners suing medical professionals.
What about the ones who have lied just to get into women's prisons or access to women and children?
Or those who have lied just to make a point about how easy it is or for Insta followers?
What about the men who lived as men all their lives fathering children and who later dress in female stereotype clothes for porn fetishes?
Gay men in drag as a performance?
These are all people who we are supposed to accept as trans, and you would have us believe them.
Was there something wrong with their innate KNOWLEDGE that they are women?? How could they be wrong but other trans people be right? And what is the difference in their respective knowledge?

If trans isn't about stereotypes then why do these men HAVE to dress in female clothes and access EVERYTHING that females need? They don't carry on just wearing clothes that fit their male bodies do they? Male clothes which have been designed for their body shape
Why do they need long hair, styled hair, high heels, jewellery, nails and make-up if they KNOW that they are women? Many many women don't ever wear those things
The ONLY answer is that they want to achieve womanhood through stereotypes. They want to APPEAR as women by deception. They can't just quietly "know" that they are women and be comfortable in their own minds with that "knowledge". They want and need everyone else to believe it.

Why else are you here trying to persuade us all just to believe them?

So sex is a system with multiple parts- it’s also a process of development- hence the variations it produces (the ones gender criticals get really angry about when you raise them). sex used to be understood as limited to internal reproductive organs and visible sexual anatomy. With scientific advances we’ve identified chromosomal and genetic components to sex, as well as numerous types of variations in the development of reproductive organs and visible anatomy, providing evidence of independent genetic
coding for different elements of sexual reproduction. there is also some more recent research that has identified potential coding for both sexual orientation and gender identity in the brain which too can vary independent of the other components of sexual reproduction.

So sex is a system with multiple parts- it’s also a process of development- hence the variations it produces (the ones gender criticals get really angry about when you raise them)

If you're talking about disorders of sexual development, it's the sufferers that get really angry about having their medical disorders dragged into the issue.

Absolutely. The NIPT tests can accurately assess whether a fetus is male or female sexed early in gestation. It looks for fetal blood cells in the mother’s blood stream and sees whether, chromosomally, they are male with XY or female with XX.

That’s it. That’s what sex is. The tiny proportion with differences of sexual development do not change the fact there are two sexes and this is encoded into the chromosomes in every cell of every body. And those differences make significant differences in some areas, such as the gametes you produce, how strong and fast you can be, eg.

It isn’t actually that complicated. We knew this stuff for a long, long time. The recent attempts to pretend the waters are muddy are rebarbative, quite frankly.

What about all the trans people who are not relieved and deeply regret their bodily modifications? Detransitioners suing medical professionals.

Detransition is a thing, and this experience is valid. But it’s the overwhelming minority.

Yes I know that’s the party line gender criticals like to trot out,
while insisting on their monopoly to school everyone else on what sex is.

Is that because the vast majority hang onto their penis and testicles while claiming womanhood?

So WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THEIR ORIGINAL "KNOWLEDGE" THAT THEY WERE A WOMAN??
You have repeatedly asserted that these people just know! Detransitioners also "knew" once upon a time and then they realised they were wrong, or groomed, or lied to

Calling them a minority doesn't allow you to brush them aside. If anything they totally disprove everything you have said plus all the science you are trying to pretend might exist.

^So sex is a system with multiple parts- it’s also a process of development- hence the variations it produces (the ones gender criticals get really angry about when you raise them). sex used to be understood as limited to internal reproductive organs and visible sexual anatomy. With scientific advances we’ve identified chromosomal and genetic components to sex, as well as numerous types of variations in the development of reproductive organs and visible anatomy, providing evidence of independent genetic
coding for different elements of sexual reproduction. there is also some more recent research that has identified potential coding for both sexual orientation and gender identity in the brain which too can vary independent of the other components of sexual reproduction.^

Research has shown very clearly there is no identifier of gender identity in the brain, there is no way to say this is a female brain or this is a male brain except to look at whether it sits in a male or female body. This also smacks a lot of 'women are good at A and men are good at B' type of thing that I am not comfortable with. The male or female brain myth is often brought forward as an argument for transgender, but without concrete scientific evidence in brain scans, it is not proof of anything, so we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Your multi faceted components of sex (internal reproductive organs, visual sexual anatomy, chromosomes and genetics) is an interesting one, if they didn't all fall into the two pathways. Again with variations, but it has been clearly documented, trans people do not have these variations, they fall into the two pathways and try to modify their visual sexual anatomy in a few cases to match those of the other pathway. Chromosomes, genetics, internal reproductive organs cannot be changed, so all in all, if you can only change a few small items, if you want to, I fail to see how anyone can claim to have changed their sex.

So I conclude based on your argument of multi dimensional sex, that even then humans can't change their sex. Do you disagree with that conclusion and if so, could you explain where you see things differently?

No. It cannot be a ‘recognition of self as female’ because as a male person that is simply not possible.

It is their own personal categorisation that what they experience is what they believe a female experiences. But it is and can only be based on falsity. Because they are male people and they experience their entire life as a male person navigating life with a male body.

They might have extreme body modification done to their body, but it is still a male human body.

You have not explained at all why this identity should be be affirmed when so many other personal identities are not. Why is a person who feels they are a reptile and has tongue modification and extensive other modifications who says all the same things about how they feel and understand themselves to be reptiles be not affirmed as a reptile? Why is an adult person who lives as a child such as Stefonknee not be affirmed as their child identity but is affirmed as being a ‘female’ when that person is an adult male person?

You have not even come close to giving a coherent post on this.

Continuing to fall back on ‘they know they are a woman’ is the very opposite to coherent and it most certainly lacks any scientific evidence at all.

So we can do a brain test to see if these men have a female gender identity before we give them passports with a female sex marker?

Or is it really some men have brains that mean they are gay or they like softer feminine stuff but they still exist entirely in male bodies and are therefore entirely male

This might provide some insight. More research on detransition is needed, but evidence suggests that most destransition is due to external factors like stigma, family opposition, difficulty finding employment etc.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8213007/

A diagnosis of gender dysphoria is not needed to claim to be transgender.

Are you saying that you only accept people with a gender dysphoria diagnosis as being a transgender person? Because that is transphobic, I believe.

The male or female brain myth is often brought forward as an argument for transgender, but without concrete scientific evidence in brain scans, it is not proof of anything, so we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

It’s absolutely not anything like as simple as the “male brain” and the “female brain”, or that there’s a single “identifier” of gender identity in the brain- I fully agree with you there! But there is a lot of interesting research on brain structure , transness and sexuality. I posted various links to papers earlier. The science is in its infancy, but I’m very sure there will be much more to come.

Oh so you are now trying to assert that detransitioners cannot be trusted with their own testimony and it must be down to other people who just wouldn't let them be trans! They suddenly don't know anything!

Even those who are now left desperately incontinent and in constant pain from bottom surgery

Why are you stating that more research on detransitioning is needed but not that more research on this supposed elusive "female brain" is needed first. Surely we should have done all the research before taking away single sex spaces! We are just supposed to accept beliefs and hand out legal documents to any man that wants one.

Honestly it's all just an entire ideology of contradictions.

This is not reflected in material reality. This is philosophical theory such as postmodernism being used to support someone’s identity.

Someone is not what they say they are, just because they believe they are this concept that they believe they are, that doesn’t reflect material reality.

You really can continue to repeat this as many times as you want. It doesn’t make it true though. Because the reality will continue to abide whether you believe it or not believe it.

Oh so you are now trying to assert that detransitioners cannot be trusted with their own testimony

eh? This is research relying on the “testimony” of detransitioners as to why they detransitioned 🤯.

eh? This is research relying on the “testimony” of detransitioners 🤯

And the transitioners that speak out about how they realised they weren't trans, just young women suffering from trauma? Conveniently not mentioned.

No. What you are trying to do is produce a combination of words that you think sounds acceptable enough for others to agree that the impossible is plausible and indeed is possible. When it is not possible.

Your entire premise requires a person to accept that a male person can ever experience life as a female person experiences it. They cannot.

A male person with a gender identity they claim is female can only ever experience life as a male person with a male body and their life’s experience of being male. Maybe as a male person with an extreme body modification.

You are not bridging any kind of understanding at all. You are declaring falsehoods are proven truths and proven science. But it is not.

I have not claimed that all transgender people are misogynistic though. For at least one very obvious reason.

So, that looks to be you making that negative claim.

Of course we can hear those stories too, but what is not helpful is when a minority experience is picked up and manipulated and amplified by people with an agenda and made to sound like it’s the majority.

It’s equivalent to when anti abortion groups amplify the voices of a small minority of women who deeply regret abortion and then use it to promote a pro-life agenda. Yes these experiences are important , yes they should be heard so that we can do better with assessment etc, but we should not pretend they are anything other than a tiny minority, in amongst an overwhelming majority of trans people who do not detransition and require respect for their identities and access to health and other services

P.s.

This work you cited is by Jack Turban from 2018 and has been widely disputed plus is unethical given he makes money from puberty blockers and surgery. That means he cannot be impartial in a study about detransitioners. He's not going to produce a result that ends up with him being sued by his own patients now is he?

It is an act of misogyny if you declare that your experience in life as a male person is one that must be a female experience because you believe you are a female person.

A male person redefining the female experience in life? And you cannot see the misogyny in that act?

Good to know.

Of course we can hear those stories too, but what is not helpful is when a minority experience is picked up and manipulated and amplified by people with an agenda and made to sound like it’s the majority.

You're assuming it's the minority, I doubt there is much quantifiable evidence of actual numbers.

I see that another poster has now picked up on the single study you linked to, and the bias of the author.