To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Tough. Whatever the person is, if you're not comfortable you're not comfortable. You don't need to justify that

I'll go one further and asl whether @Lostcat can give any explained if any time a person's gender identity is relevant to literally anything.

Bugger the jury, what do YOU think?

Are sex and gender the same thing?

(Clue: if they are the same thing, a trans woman is just a man.)

How is gender relevant to sports?

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing. Agree?

You say the jury is out on this one. That is an interesting take.

1. The starting point of being a transwoman is that you have to be born male.

You have to be registered male at birth yes. Ok, so transwomen are male at birth, women are female. We have common ground.

1. Sometimes in certain situations sex matters. Like for example healthcare

^*yes absolutely, sports- not so sure,*^ So transwomen are the male sex, women are the female sex, in healthcare this is important to differentiate, but not sports.

Next question:

1. do you think anybody can ever change their sex?

Also, to continue with the first question:
1b. If sex and gender are not the same thing or sometimes the same thing, where is the difference or overlap?

They're not here to have their minds changed or broadened.

Are you, though?

Sorry, tried to number the questions to keep the conversation going, but the app screwed up the points.

We agree on: transwomen are male at birth, women are female.
We also agree on that sex matters in healthcar, but you disagree with sports.

You also say the jury is out if sex and gender are different things. This is where the question 1b comes in, what is the difference or overlap or debate on sex and gender in your view?

And my new question is if you think anybody can ever change their sex? I feel this is usually a point of disagreement: many people say no, never. Others feel that as long as you change some/all of your secondary sex characteristics, you can state you have changed your sex. Where do you sit?

I'm happy to have my mind broadened but I will never be convinced that that it is acceptable to speak about trans people the way they are spoken about on Mumsnet. It's hideous.

I'm happy to have my mind broadened but I will never be convinced that that it is acceptable to speak about trans people the way they are spoken about on Mumsnet. It's hideous.

The problem is that there's no real way to meet in the middle here - what is one person's factual statement, is another one's hideous insult, because there's a fundamental core disagreement.

It's hideous

So is removing the protections of a single sex space, making it mixed sex, all the while pretending that Gladys not real name with the 5 o'clock shadow, 20% greater punch power, and male privilege whilst growing up, is "just one of the girls"

There is no right, in this country, to force another to believe what you want them to.

What about the right to decency, and privacy, of natal women?

How come if a natal woman says "hang on, I don't feel comfortable with this", the natal woman is the one told she is a Bigot, and she is expected to roll over and deal with it. BE KIND.

How's about the males are told that they can piss back off to their own spaces, and if they are afraid of the men there, it is NOT women who need to budge up.

Many women have supported third spaces.

Yet, they are rejected by trans-identifying men. If they had even the slightest inkling of what it is to be a woman, they would be 'kind' and think of the impact they have on natal women.

Men fear that women will laugh at them.
Women, on the other hand...

What, saying that trans women are men, you mea?

I can’t speak for every thread on MN, clearly, but I don’t recall seeing any insults on this thread, just statements of fact. Have you seen things written that you deem insulting or hideous? If so, what?

I don't believe that calling trans people mentally ill, mutilated or inherently misogynistic is factual. Along with a lot of the other things said about them here.

I also notice that these insults are always used towards trans women, which then goes into it's about men destroying women's rights etc. no one seemed to care about trans men here.

I think those are nasty insults that come from a place of hatred, not facts.

Say a trans woman is a biological male and ill agree with you because it's a fact. Call them mutilated misogynists and I will never see your point because it is hateful.

The gender critical posters always like to say that it's great people are posting on behalf on trans people and their rights because it shows how stupid we are and will convert the masses to being gender critical. That is a nasty way to speak to people, smacks of bullying and actually isn't true. I was on the fence about this issue and after watching these debates unfold time and time again the vitriol from the gender critical posters turned me away from them. I choose inclusion and respectful for all people in our society. Yes people are watching what is said here, that isn't necessarily the boon for the gender critical that they claim it to be.

Do you choose to include these male people in women's spaces and sports?

I don't believe that calling trans people mentally ill

What's wrong with the view that trans is a mental health issue or illness? There is nothing bad about having an issue or illness. It just is what it is.

If there is some proof or even logic to show it isn't a mental health issue I'd love to see or hear it.

I'm Fae, I'm having some difficulties with my passport, please can the kind ones on this thread help me?

If you can't here, because of the bigots, please can you help me by linking how I can get the passport that reflects my Fae status?

It's a recognised gender, my bank welcomes it, so please, how can I get it on my passport, kind ones?

I try to ignore the haters, but I think I've found some kind allies on this thread.

Thank you 🙏

I don't believe that calling trans people mentally ill, mutilated or inherently misogynistic is factual. Along with a lot of the other things said about them here.

I do think that anyone who believes they are something that they clearly are not, is suffering from some sort of delusion. If this delusion is accompanied by distress, then mental illness seems an appropriate discriptor. It's no insult - I have my own mental illness challenges (OCD). It is what it is.

I personally find the surgeries horrifying and utterly unethical. There are lots of euphemisms employed, "top surgery", "gender affirming care" etc, but then one sees the pictures and reads about the complication rates and at that point, mulilation does seem like an appropriate word. The shame is with the doctors, the patients are the victims, who have been lied to that something is possible when it patently is not.

Misogyny - thinking of women as a collection of stereotypes of appearance and behaviour could certainly be described as that.

This is what I mean by the difficulty in discussing, as one "side" is going to see the above as deeply insulting whereas others will view it as factual.

What about inclusion and respect for those who cannot share spaces with those of the opposite sex, regardless of how they identify?

What about natal women who need single sex rape crisis help?
What about those natal women who cannot share a bathroom or changing room with a natal male, due to male violence in their past?
What about those natal women who can't share spaces with natal males, due to their faith?

What about the women who have lost their chance at Olympic glory (or even, just a Park Run placing), because a natal male, with a different muscular, cardiovascular and skeletal system which confers serious physical advantages has decided his inclusion in the female competition is more important than every single woman in that event?

You also say the jury is out if sex and gender are different things. This is where the question 1b comes in, what is the difference or overlap or debate on sex and gender in your view?

Well the sex/ gender debate - how to summarise in a mumsnet thread? Each , and the relationships between them , have been theorised in so many different ways. But I suppose the simplest way to think of it as sex relates to the body, and gender to the psyche, but then you get into the whole thing about is there really a meaningful distinction between mind and body- the brain is part of the body and all that. I suppose my view is that it’s helpful to think of gender and sex as distinct- without this distinction it’s difficult to make sense of trans experience- but also they may just in fact be different domains/ parts of the same thing. I also don’t think of “sex” as being something that is unitary/ singular ( - but a system with multiple components- so gender may in fact just be another part of that system.

I guess that then relates to your question of whether a person can “change sex”. The question doesn’t really make sense to me, because , sex is a multi- dimensional , complex , dynamic process of development, not a singular “thing” with a fixed essence.

Erm I listed a string of them earlier

this is just such a relief to read.

The question doesn’t really make sense to me, because , sex is a multi- dimensional , complex , dynamic process of development, not a singular “thing” with a fixed essence

Yet somehow sex selection IVF exists.

The problem with all of this is it’s just seeped in your judgements / assumptions about stuff that you have no experience or understanding of.
For example - your judgements about surgeries- what about all the trans people who are profoundly relieved by the surgeries they have had and happy with their bodies? Do their thoughts and feelings matter at all?

you also say: Misogyny - thinking of women as a collection of stereotypes of appearance and behaviour could certainly be described as that.
But that’s not what being trans is aboit. You’ve repeatedly had this explained to you, but you refuse to accept it, because you’ve projected your own ideas onto trans women. What you see are stereotypes and you’ve wrongly surmised that this is what being trans is.it isn’t. Being trans is not defined by appearance or behaviour.

sex is a multi- dimensional , complex , dynamic process of development, not a singular “thing” with a fixed essence

I see that this is where the conversation breaks down. Most people when asked about the male and female sexes will refer to the two pathways animals including humans, evolve in. Yes, even those that a medical condition that means their pathways deviate from the norm.

What is there to sex that is multi dimensional? I can only see the potential to produce sperm or eggs. Btw, I am a big believer in nurture over nature, so I will have a hard time understanding anything about 'essence'.

Being trans is not defined by appearance or behaviour

Brilliant. A reverse definition. So what is it defined as then?

You’ve repeatedly had this explained to you, but you refuse to accept it, because you’ve projected your own ideas onto trans women. What you see are stereotypes and you’ve wrongly surmised that this is what being trans is.it isn’t.

This is the crux, isn't it? To your way of thinking, you're right and I'm wrong. But to my way of thinking, it's the other way around. I've also "repeatedly explained things to you", and you have also refused to accept them.
So... stalemate.

The problem with all of this is it’s just seeped in your judgements / assumptions about stuff that you have no experience or understanding of.

But again this is just your assumption. You have no idea what I do and do know on the topic, how long I have followed it, etc. You want to believe that because I don't agree with you, I lack understanding and experience. But again, that comes down to your belief, not to material reality.