To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Yes, same.
Lostcat is the self proclaimed expert though, despite not being trans/gnc

Your also said that TW know they are female. My TW friend is very very aware that they aren't.

How can you recognise, apprehend or understand what it feels like to be something you’ve never been?

You can’t. Nobody can.

Anybody in this situation can only go on what they imagine to be the feelings or understanding of a person of another sex. No person on earth can know exactly what it feels like to be something you’re not. I can’t imagine what it would feel like to be a man, because I’ve never been one. As a white person, I can’t imagine with full accuracy what the experience of a black oerson is in our society. I would never presume to imagine I knew this. It would be an act of utmost arrogance on my part. I try to empathise and imagine, but I recognise that’s as far as I can possibly go, in truth. Anything else is just fanciful imaginings.

I could therefore never genuinely ‘understand’ or recognise myself to be a man. How could I honestly do that, when I know I don’t have actual lived experience of that, so can only guess at what it might feel like?

People who say they know, understand or apprehend themselves to be the opposite sex are mistaken. They have to be, there is no logical alternative in a universe of material reality. At best, they can only ‘understand’ themselves to be the opposite sex based on their own construct of what it feels like to be of the opposite sex. That needs to be recognised.

You cannot have an understanding of what it is to be something you are not. You can believe you do but faith has no bearing on material reality.

Ok there’s really no point to this conversation if it’s just going to turn into “well my trans friend said x, y, z”.

Obviously I know nothing about your friend, but if she really is trans, I suggest going to talk to her - in depth- about her gender; what it feels like to be trans; how she understands her experience. Whether she thinks is just a “preference” or “want”, or whether it’s a deeper psychological apprehension/ understanding of self. You might gain some new perspective, you never know.

No it has never been explained well by either of you.

You are trying to say that every female experiences the " feeling of being female" which is perfectly well known to be untrue. There is no universal feeling of being female that has been previously explained to men to allow them to certainly think" oh i feel like that too so i must be a woman"

You either are one or you aren't. Through early education and knowledge of your body you know which you are. You cannot imagine yourself into a sex which your body is not.

What of people who think they are cats? Must we believe them too?

We cannot "choose" to disagree with @lostcats. It's simply our knowledge that doesn't permit us to agree with any of the flat arguments.

I always enjoy the 'talk to trans people' instruction.

I have spoken at length to my cousins child, who 'transitioned' from female to male and ultimately detransitioned when she realised that transitioning didn't solve any of her issues. Unfortunately she has been left with considerable health issues as a result of taking testosterone for a significant period of time. We are at least thankful that she didn't have surgery.

Her physical and mental health are shattered. This is the reality for some vulnerable young people.

You are trying to say that every female experiences the " feeling of being female" which is perfectly well known to be untrue. There is no universal feeling of being female

how you and others choose to summarise what I’ve said is bizarre

So patronising!

You told us to go and talk to transpeople. We are telling you we have.

And no. I don't go and question her in depth. If she feels the need to tell me then I'll listen.

My NB friend otoh has explained it to me as "not feeling like a man or a woman"
Neither do I. I just feel like me.

Well then that’s why I said you are lacking insight. You clearly have no depth of understanding of trans experience at all.

Anyways I really do have to stop ignoring my kids now x

Lol are we really at ‘ooooh talk to trans people I bet you don’t know any you bigots’?? How very 2021

i work with 2 Trans people - a TM & TW. They are quite clearly the sex they were born and no amount of what they believe changes that.

I have plenty of understanding thank you. Nothing anyone tells me will make me believe that you can feel like something you aren't. You can only feel how you think that is. A male doesn't know what it feels like to be female. My TW friend would agree with this.

You have a one dimensional view of what it is to be trans @Lostcat lt is you who lacks insight.

And yet you do despite not being trans yourself

how odd

Everything you have said is bizarre and contradictory

Men cannot on one hand know their male sex and at the same time " know that they are women" which is what you have repeatedly asserted. You can't even explain your argument properly because as you have explained you are not a trans identified man so you have no insight into how they think or feel. Just like they have no insight into how a woman in a female body feels.

They might feel feminine ( a harmful stereotype of being a woman) and like "girly" things but as everyone has explained to you NONE of that translates into them having any knowledge of what it is like being of the female sex. Because they are of the male sex.

So, Lostcat, back to gender, sex and how do we support sex segregation in law, as that is what women want? Can we find any common ground?

I'll start.

Sex and gender identity are not the same thing.
You have to be male to be able to be a transwoman.

Agree? If not, what is your starting point to enable the legal framework for sex segregation?

What a waste of a day.

I wonder how his wife and kids feel about it all.

Are you cross you didn't get to indoctrine a lot of people into your beliefs?

Here's a tip...stop trying.

We all have freedom from your beliefs

I thought it was rather informative

indoctrine?

No. I was trying to have a productive conversation.
god knows why I thought that would be possible.

How would you have measured the "productive output"?

Indeed.

I have learned that it is not possible on these threads.

They're not here to have their minds changed or broadened. They're here to tell you you're wrong.