To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

'Do you, lostcat, have any problem with sex segregation?'

Yes, I'd like to know this as well.

Just read the last reply of Lostcat, so transwomen know what it is to be female, whilst not being female, and Lostcat knows what it is to be trans but isn't trans. Are you all mindreaders?

I know one thing that proves transwomen don't understand or know what it is to be female. If they did, they wouldn't dismiss the biological experience of being female as irrelevant to being a woman.

Because it's nonsensical.

So if you're not trans you can only imagine how it is to be trans.
In the same way men who are not women can only imagine how it is to be a woman.
Can't you see that?

Why do you keep trotting out the same old nonsense?

No. But I reject nonsense ramblings

I honestly think it’s impossible to have any conversation about policy, without any understanding of what being trans is, what sex is, what gender is, etc.

Thats why I’m focusing on trying to bridge some kind of understanding/ agreement on those more fundamental questions first.

I honestly think it’s impossible to have any conversation about policy, without any understanding of what being trans is, what sex is, what gender is, etc.

Thats why I’m focusing on trying to bridge some kind of understanding/ agreement on those more fundamental questions first.

Great!

Could you start by telling us what you mean by "gender" please?

It’s much more fundamental than that- it’s a recognition- an understanding of self.

If they believe they are the opposite sex, then it is a fundamental misunderstanding of self.
I know you find this offensive, but you're asking people to agree with a belief over observable reality.

why? Are you afraid of trans people?

Potentially, in some circumstances, as I would be of any man.

Honestly, it's not helpful to say go talk to some trans people. It's patronising and it's what a lot of people with your beliefs say. As if we live a vacuum. I have trans people and gender non conforming people in my life. But men are not women.

I’m sorry you find it patronising but I’m not sure what I’m supposed to say when I tell you what being trans is and you say you won’t believe me because I’m not trans 🤷🏼‍♀️. I have to say for someone who claims to have “trans people” in your life, you don’t have a lot of insight into the subject.

You are aware that it is both transphobic and a sweeping generalisation to claim that all transgender people are misogynistic, both of which are against the rules on MN?

Oh I missed this:
Yep another one for you @TheKeatingFive . Trans women are misogynists.

I do actually know several transwomen. All are attracted to women, one is a father, all transitioned in middle age. None pass. I don't see any of them as women.
I'm not trying to be unkind here, this is factually my experience.

I've got trans and NB friends.

My TW friend is well aware they are male and only ever refer to themself as a TW. Never a woman, and never female.

My NB friend is also perfectly aware that they are female.

She has explained it quite well many times, you're all just choosing to disagree with her. It's not the same thing.

that doesn’t sound unkind . It sounds true to life.

You missed mutilated as well, that one gets trotted out a lot and is one I find particularly nasty.

Yes, please. I've never heard a definition of gender that has been based on anything other than a bunch of sex-based stereotypes and/or a nebulous 'female essence' (which no actual women seem to recognise as a thing).

It’s much more fundamental than that- it’s a recognition- an understanding of self.

Do you recognise the other 72+ genders as legitimate @Lostcat?

*I honestly think it’s impossible to have any conversation about policy, without any understanding of what being trans is, what sex is, what gender is, etc.

Thats why I’m focusing on trying to bridge some kind of understanding/ agreement on those more fundamental questions first.*

Brilliant, I want that conversation as well, so lets start.

@Lostcat, can we agree sex is not gender?

Saying that men know they are men and also women and we need to believe them is not an explanation. It is gobbledegook.

Try this one. At what point does a man become a woman?

Yes. As I said trans people are well aware of their bodies and their sex registered at birth.

When I use a changing space and there's a man in a dress there, my reality is that I'm undressing in front of a strange man and I feel unsafe, stripped bare and violated against my consent.

Don't talk about the unkindness of not accepting someone's reality when these men won't accept ours!

Well you don't know what insight I have because you haven't met me. You've read a few comments on here.
My male relative does not claim to be female.
But clearly you're the only one who knows aaaalllllll about it. You do not seem to understand that other people could be speaking from a place of experience too.
Patronising.