To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Nought to do w you what she chooses for herself

I'm not suggesting that being trans is incompatible with life 😂 fucking hell.

Crack on, wear whatever you like, call yourself whatever you like, have a long, happy and productive life free from persecution and full of love. I genuinely mean that.
But you cannot expect the rest of the world to go along with a delusion that you are actually the opposite sex. You cannot expect people to welcome you into single sex spaces that are single sex for a reason. It's just not fair and smacks of (usually male) entitlement.

And the standard comparisons with gay conversion therapy. Quelle surprise.
The fact that the TQA+ has managed to tag itself on to the LGB is a fucking travesty. And something pretty much every LGB person I know is royally fucked off about.

We just don't want men in spaces meant for women.

It's you who are making false comparisons. Sexuality and sex/gender are not remotely comparable. The anorexia comparison is much more valid. Someone being very overweight vs very underweight is a fact, like biological sex. If an adult believes they are fat when they weigh 7 stone, then they are wrong and deluded. It's not at all the same as having a sexual preference for one sex over another. That's not something you can be wrong about. It's your own preference.

I totally agree with you that trans people should be allowed to be themselves in the sense of presenting however they wish and calling themselves what they wish. 'Not being incompatible with life' is irrelevant to this argument. Obviously believing you're something you are not is not incompatible with life. Why would it be? The basis for comparison with anorexia was to do with inability to accept or see reality, not to do with compatibility with life!

Non binary people are still either of the male sex or the female sex.

Sexuality and sex/gender are not remotely comparable

Of course they are.

Right. I've done my best for today 😅and we are at this point.

Have a lovely evening all!

No they are not. Sex in an inherent and unchangeable characteristic. If a post-mortem were performed on an adult human being, would you be able to tell their sexuality?

You've done fantastically thank you.

What happens then if a person doesn't have a gender identity?

And again, I'll ask the question not answered yesterday.

What is gender?

If the UK Government, Stonewall and the WHO can't agree what gender is, how can organisations have policies based on gender?

If they don't have a gender identity did they even fall over in the forest?

Will leave you all once more with this:

I know I'm a woman.

Right. This is exactly the experience that trans women have too.

They know their bodies are different to yours, they know that they were registered male at birth, they know that other people see them as male. But yet, in spite of all these things, they know that they are a woman.

This is what it is to be trans.

It's not a choice. It's not a pretence, It's not a philosophical belief. It is, as a pp said, a "state of being": a fundamental characteristic of a person that they can do absolutely nothing about. We don't (yet) know what causes it, but there is evidence suggesting there is a durable biological underpinning to trans experience.

Continuing to insist but they don't know, they can't know, that's ridiculous, they are wrong, crack on and wear what you like but you can't expect me to support your delusion, etc etc is nothing more than a denial, refusal of the reality of trans experience.

It is this denial, refusal that results in so much prejudice and disdain directed against trans people.

It is not necessary for people to have a diagnosis. And how can you have this diagnosis for the many gender identitirs that some people keep ignoring?

It is this denial, refusal that results in so much prejudice and disdain directed against trans people.

It's not prejudice or disdain, it's seeing trans people for what they are - the sex they were born.

It's recognising a provable, observable scientific fact.

Just like recognising that if you let go of an object, it will fall, due to another provable, observable scientific fact, gravity.

You can rinse and repeat until the cows come home but none of what you have said is true.

A trans identified man DOES NOT KNOW THAT HE IS A WOMAN

HE KNOWS THAT HE IS MALE
THAT MAKES HIM A MAN

He actually knows that he is a man

Again, no. Men who identify as transwomen
DO NOT know they are women, because they are NOT women. Obviously. 'Woman' isn't something you believe you are or choose to be. It's a non optional biological fact, like having legs or not having a tail.

It's not denying your experience to say that biology is fixed and unchangeable. That's just a literal fact.

It is not prejudice which causes me to say that men aren't women, it's nothing to do with me that men aren't women. It's just a fact. PPs example of anorexia is a good one - I'll continue to deny the 5 stone person is fat, because it's a fact that they're not fat. I don't deny they believe they're fat, but they absolutely in reality are not.

Seeing “trans people for who they are” couldn’t be further than what you are up to.

Again, no… [they] DO NOT know they are women

denial while shouting

The last couple of pages have been marvellously instructive. LostCat's posts remind me very much of what it's sometimes like to have conversations with a certain type of religious person. They insist that they know God/Allah/whatever exists, they don't just believe it, they know it. Requests for evidence for this claimed 'knowledge' are met with slurs and smears, accusations of hatred and prejudice and bigotry and wilful denial, disingenuous pretences not to understand the questions being asked (often by focusing on a typo, for example), deflection, ignoring questions they can't or don't want to answer (how many times did LostCat ignore the perfectly reasonable point about 'trans women' in women's sports?), and so on and so forth.

This notion that male human beings can have some essence or self or soul, or whatever we call it, that is actually female is a religious belief.

"Continuing to insist but they don't know, they can't know, that's ridiculous, they are wrong, crack on and wear what you like but you can't expect me to support your delusion, etc etc is nothing more than a denial, refusal of the reality of trans experience."

I know that some people have the experience of believing they're a woman when they're actually a man, just as I know that some people have the experience of believing in God/Allah/whatever. They're perfectly entitled to hold and express their belief, of course. And I'm perfectly entitled to say that I don't believe in any divine entity. Just like I'm perfectly entitled to say that I don't believe any male human beings have some magical mystical essence inside them that makes them women. People born male are boys, and later in life, are men. Not a single one of them ever has been, is, will be or possibly ever could be a woman.

Denial because they are wrong. Men aren't women. Nothing will make them women. They don't know they are women. Because they aren't.

Reality isn't denial.

That is not a response to the points raised.

Requests for evidence for this claimed 'knowledge' are met with slurs and smears

wilful denial, disingenuous pretences not to understand the questions being asked

outrageous. But I know it’s what people like to do on these threads- attack the person because they don’t care to listen to what they have to say.

God it's so annoying that people keep calling transgenderism a religion.

You need a deity or some belief in a greater power for it to be a religion!!

You've said at least twice in the last half an hour that you're leaving the thread, yet you're still here?

You've not actually said anything apart from a man can be a woman if he thinks it. And anyone asking you to explain gets ignored or accused of 'denial'.

How does magical female essence get put in a male body? Who does that? Is it a higher power?