To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

It does help to read the whole post rather than just the first line

"There are men and women and trans people and people with variations in sex development, and possibly other axes of diversity we haven’t discovered yet. And all these things are real and valid"

This needs a few tweaks for accuracy.

• All humans are males of female.
• DSDs are male or female specific. There is a binary sex classification whereby there are males with DSDs or females with DSDs
• Trans people can be male or female. There is a binary sex classification whereby there are males with trans identities or females with trans identities.

I get that many trans people find it distressing to be classified by their natal sex and it is my view that this should be avoided in contexts other than those where sex is relevant.

It is ridiculous to try and 'queer' the sex binary. Attempts to do so simply result in talking about phenomenon that are adjacent to sex. The survival of the species is dependent on there being 2 sexes, and over 99% of the population have no lack of certainty about which form of contraception they need to use to practice safe sexual intercourse. Those who don't know can receive medical advice and attention.

Just out of curiosity what makes you all so terrified of recognising human diversity?
Do you think the sky will fall in if you acknowledge that not all experiences are the same? That all bodies are the same? That there isn’t in fact the consensus you want to believe there is, in the words we use to classify different experiences and different bodies , and the “boxes” they rightfully belong in?
Why?

No one is saying that. We are simply saying there are only two sexes and sometimes that matters. Why are you so afraid of accepting that? Why?

Yay!!!! You caught me out for leaving out some words. How wonderful for you!! You must feel really great.

Considering it is not me writing falsities such as this:

“This is not to say that sex doesn’t matter. It does matter, of course, for all kinds of reasons. But there is diversity too, and that’s also ok. There are no absolutes. There are men and women and trans people and people with variations in sex development, and possibly other axes of diversity we haven’t discovered yet. And all these things are real and valid.”

When in fact you have leveraged a groups medical condition to support destabilising the sex categories of humans and feel you have the moral superiority over others in doing so. Well done. Enjoy the moment.

”People with differences in sex development are either male or female, thanks to modern technology.”

should, of course, be

”People with differences in sex development are categorised reliably as either male or female, thanks to modern technology.”

But hey.. nice one

You should be terrified of recognising things that aren't there. There are only two sexes of humans, if you can recognise any others you are hallucinating and should talk to a medical professional

I'm not terrified of anything.

I respect scientific facts and material realty and believe these need to be the basis of our legal frameworks.

No one is denying ‘human diversity’.

You seem to be rather ill informed on what you seem keen on supporting.

“That there isn’t in fact the consensus you want to believe there is, in the words we use to classify different experiences and different bodies , and the “boxes” they rightfully belong in?”

And this is misinformation.

There IS consensus. If a male person is in hospital for an issue you can be very sure that there is absolutely consensus around what sex that person is.

However, what has also happened is that groups of humans have claimed words for themselves that mean the very opposite to the original intention which removes the intended and well established meaning.

No male person can ever be a ‘woman’. Despite them claiming that word, it has then destroyed the meaning of the word. This is not progressive. This is not celebrating the diversity of people. This is actually the opposite of that.

It's gender ideologues who are 'terrified of recognising human diversity'. You think dress+makeup+liking kittens=female and short hair+liking football+fancying girls=male.

As I said in a previous post, any type of personality belongs in either sex of human. Of course not all bodies are the same, but they come in two sexes which cannot be changed.

"Just out of curiosity what makes you all so terrified of recognising human diversity? "

It's interesting that you interpret it as fear of diversity. I think that most posters concerns relate to how people are categorised and which categories are privileged. I think these are the same concerns that trans activists have). I think the fear relates to the impact of eradicating sex as a protected characteristic either by replacing it with gender identity, or by rendering it pointless by including people of the opposite sex into a sex category on the basis of their gender identity. Again, I think these concerns are mirrored by trans activists who fear sex categories being determined by natal sex and excluding people who don't want to be classified in this way.

I guess the counter question is, why are you so fearful of acknowledging the material and immutability of the sex binary?

And remember there are over 130+ genders yet some people seem very transphobic in focusing on only those where a person claims to be the opposite sex.

I acknowledged that sex matters. Of course it does .

“Only two sexes” is a narrative claim.
Let’s be more objective and descriptive.

For the most part sex develops broadly in one of two typical ways- we use “male” to describe one pathway of development and “female” to describe the other. In some minority cases peoples bodies develop differently, such that their bodies have some characteristics of male bodies , and some characteristics of female bodies. There are all kinds of possible variations with different consequences for health and medical interventions. People experience and interpret these variations differently,

Then there are trans people. These are people whose bodies appear to have developed in a sex typical way, but who develop an understanding of self as sexed differently to their sex as it was observed at birth. We don’t (yet) know what causes this, or why, but it is a widespread form of human diversity . Being trans is a real experience over which a person has very little, if any, control. It may well have a biological underpinning , although we don’t have the science to identify or explain it yet. It is not a “belief” or a “fantasy”; nor is it trivial. It is fundamental to the person, often manifests in very early childhood, typically resistant to change and can cause a person great distress. With medical interventions and social and legal accommodations we can relieve that distress and support people to live in a way that feels tolerable and authentic for them.

You are misunderstanding, probably deliberately. Two of the biggest and most disingenuous lies that the genderists tell are 1) that gender-critical people deny the existence of trans people and 2) that we deny diversity and don't think that people should be allowed to be themselves or be different.

This is total nonsense. Gender = defining people by stereotypes. That's a major part of why gender-critical people are critical of gender! Yes, everyone is unique. Yes, there is a huge variation in bodies, preferences and personalities. People should be able to look how they want, call themselves whatever name they want and reject any and all steteotypes. There is nothing scary about acknowledging any of that. There are still only two sexes though - and you remain tye one you were born. That doesn't mean you have to embrace the stereotypes associated with that sex.

And deny the existence of trans people? Nope. People who want to be, or consider themselves to be, the opposite sex definitely exist.

I love these faux naive posts.

Not transparent at all.

Nice try op

What are you saying - you think it's right that men can be classified as women on their passports?

The concept of 'gender identity' cannot be defined, even by its biggest advocates.

So why on earth would I agree it should trump the primacy of sex?

Do we have a definition of trans yet? One that's not circular and doesn't rely on stereotypes?

No. We don't.

Hi @Lostcat , I asked you about this earlier about my 'utopia' that in situation that sex matters, sex wins out over gender identity, but you seem to have missed it.

So you say:

I acknowledged that sex matters. Of course it does .

Great. So why allow falsifying of IDs and continue to demand legally segregating based on sex should not to allowed?

Do you feel this is in the best interest of women (not transwomen, we can all see that) and what if women refuse to accept mixed sex sports and facilities? What if we continue to reject transwomen, male people, in the situations where sex matters?

“sex wins out over gender identity”

This is such an odd thing to say. Why are you suggesting that one characteristic of a person should “win” over another characteristic of a person? What does this even mean?

In what other context would this make any sense at all?

The problem you are having is that you think that “gender” is trivial, superficial, make-believe, because you don’t understand or recognise trans experience . It’s none of these things. It’s a fundamental characteristic of a person; it’s just as fundamental as sex,

When it comes to sex specific places - like women's sports, prisons, abuse shelters - then of course sex should win out.

Why on earth would anyone conclude that an undefinable concept like 'gender identity' is more important than sex in these situations?

The problem you are having is that you think that “gender” is trivial, superficial, make-believe, because you don’t understand or recognise trans experience . It’s none of these things. It’s a fundamental characteristic of a person; it’s just as fundamental as sex

What is it then? How is it defined?

The problem you are having is that you think that “gender” is trivial, superficial, make-believe, because you don’t understand or recognise trans experience . It’s none of these things. It’s a fundamental characteristic of a person; it’s just as fundamental as sex

You can't even define it. So how on earth are you arguing that it's as important as sex?

Explained in this post here @PoissonOfTheChrist

I've asked this before, but what is the thing that all women and 'transwomen' share that no non-trans man does that would make this a coherent category?