To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Then there are trans people. These are people whose bodies appear to have developed in a sex typical way, but who develop an understanding of self as sexed differently to their sex as it was observed at birth.

That's just saying their think they're the opposite sex. So trans is just thinking you're the opposite sex?

So women. Stay in your lane. Even better be like Afghan women who aren’t allowed to talk to each other outside their homes.

So trans is just thinking you're the opposite sex?

Essentially yes. Although the word “opposite” doesn’t quite work, as not all people understand/ interpret their sex as binary.

Trans people are people who understand/ know/ recognise/ experience their sex as different to their sex as it was observed at birth.

"Then there are trans people. These are people whose bodies appear to have developed in a sex typical way, but who develop an understanding of self as sexed differently to their sex as it was observed at birth."

I am not someone who trivialises the significance of subjective experience. Both the material and subjective greatly influence quality of life.

There are debates to be had about when and where the material reality of sex matters and how this should be managed.

There are debates to be had about when and where others need to acknowledge/engage with the subjective experience of other people's gender identity.

However, it is unfathomable to me how people can present a position whereby they suggest there is no legitimacy to arguments that simply state that including males in the sex category female renders the category mixed sex.

Proper 'Cogito, ergo sum' stuff really, isn't it?

(Or in the words of Eminem: 'I am whatever I say I am' )

Are you laughing at trans people ? Do you think that is clever?

You are muddying the waters with this talk of 'pathways', 'interpreting variations' and 'developing an understanding of self'.

The truth is much simpler imo.

Everyone is either male or female.

A very small number of people have ambiguous genitalia but are still either male or female.

Some people feel uncomfortable being the sex they are or have a deep desire to be the opposite sex.

I am not someone who trivialises the significance of subjective experience. Both the material and subjective greatly influence quality of life

But the distinction between the “subjective” and the “material” may not be as clear as you are assuming it is. It may very well be that trans experience has a biological underpinning. There is some evidence of this. Furthermore, observation of sex at birth is an interpretative process- executed through the medium of a human brain. How we interpret sex at birth has changed over time with the Invention of new medical technologies and our understanding of sex has changed .

No. There isn't any evidence that supports what you're posting here.

It isn’t “muddying the waters”. The reality of these things is complicated. It’s not simple at all.

Are you laughing at trans people ? Do you think that is clever?

Eh? That you imagining thinks I've said, again?

This is what you wrote. it appeared to be mocking and included a grin emoji.

*Proper 'Cogito, ergo sum' stuff really, isn't it?

(Or in the words of Eminem: 'I am whatever I say I am' 😁)*

It may very well be that trans experience has a biological underpinning.

Let's suppose it has. Let's suppose there is a "biological underpinning" to thinking you are the opposite sex.

That doesn't mean you are the opposite sex. If you demand to be treated as the opposite sex, well, that needs to be argued from first principles.

However, it is unfathomable to me how people can present a position whereby they suggest there is no legitimacy to arguments that simply state that including males in the sex category female renders the category mixed sex

this

its the same to me as people saying that male bodies are not stronger faster etc than female bodies

That doesn't mean you are the opposite sex

Again, I think more descriptive/ objective language is helpful.

However people understand their sex , it doesn’t change the physical reality of their bodies.

This is true . Trans people are acutely aware of this, and this is what can be so very painful - which is why many trans people pursue medical interventions .

Still not seeing where I mocked trans people?

I find your definition of trans laughable, yes. That doesn’t mean I find trans laughable.

I see.

(I mean the definition I offered is what being trans is but never mind)

Yes this is a massive problem in safeguarding.
eg I as a middle aged woman with a full credible and traceable work history in teaching and social care needs to undergo a full DBS check for each organisation I work with. My 1 year abroad when I graduated decades ago is this an issue because it’s not traceable via NI records and therefore seen as a gap in my history.
A man decides to ‘live as a woman’ and declares trans status, changes passport & birth certificate and now has absolutely no official records/history and can now just waltz into any school/social care/girl guides role without a single check. I’m assuming they get to keep their degrees/driving licenses/professional qualifications they gained under their male ‘identity’ because it would be transphobic not to allow them that. But the prison records, the sexual offenders registers, the arrests, the police cautions, the order restraints? They can all disappear thank you.

The Trans DBS loophole isn't a massive issue for safeguarding, it completely obliterates it.

As anyone can just leave off old names. And the people most likely to, are the sorts of people who know they won't get the job if they don't.

It makes the whole DBS process completely useless.

For the most part sex develops broadly in one of two typical ways- we use “male” to describe one pathway of development and “female” to describe the other. In some minority cases peoples bodies develop differently, such that their bodies have some characteristics of male bodies , and some characteristics of female bodies.

This is not true. Humans only come in two sexes. There are no people with some characteristics of each sex. It is offensive to try to use people with rare medical conditions to try to prove that sex is complicated or a spectrum. It isn't. And even if it was (which it isn't), it'd still have nothing to do with gender, which is a philosophical belief which has nothing to do with people with DSDs.

Then there are trans people. These are people whose bodies appear to have developed in a sex typical way, but who develop an understanding of self as sexed differently to their sex as it was observed at birth.

Also not true. Their bodies don't 'appear to have developed in a sex typical way', their bodies did develop in a sex typical way. A person's understanding of their self has nothing to do with sex which is a straightforward biological thing. A person who is one sex cannot possibly 'really' be the other sex, because they've no way of knowing what being the other sex is like.

Thank you
I know I had read about it somewhere but couldn’t remember where
plus I’m not very knowledgeable about this stuff

I know that a man who had sexually assaulted teen boys many years ago
“transitioned” and did the exact sort of assault
many years later but his previous offences were not known as he wasn’t arrested / charged under his old / dead name

it was only because they were quite high profile and activist for trans rights that a local person remember who he was and past it on to a journalist who did a lot of digging and found a newspaper archive under their previous dead name where he was named in the papers for his sex crimes on teen boys

I think they threatened the journalist with court as they had “dead named him 😂

this wasn’t that long ago either within the last few 2-3 years

.

A person who is one sex cannot possibly 'really' be the other sex, because they've no way of knowing what being the other sex is like.

A totally fundamental point here