To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Having a transgender identity is not based on a medical condition as per the clarification from transgender people who are academics in this field.

Therefore, it is you who seems to be ill informed and denying valid cimparators.

“Being trans is not a belief”

It is absolutely a belief about their identity. It is not even well defined as an identity. Not only that but there are over 130 gender identities. Are you saying that some are more valid than others?

Making a modification to a person’s sex doesn’t not change their sex. A person’s sex category is coded in their cells.

If you remove a male person’s penis, they simply become a male person without a penis. If you remove a male person’s testes, they are a male person without testes, that once had testes but never had ovaries. If you give a male person Estrogen, they become a male person who takes an exogenous estrogen supplement but lacks any capacity and never had the body built around producing female levels of estrogen.

They always remain male. Never female.

There is no difference between a male person who has a penis and testes removed for other reasons other than as an extreme body modification for their identity and one removing their penis and testes for identity purposes. Except the claim that they are ‘female’.

No - there have been problems for long time but Irish women have been hung out to dry. Glad to be Irish in Scotland where women won't wheesht.

It seems we need a reminder on every thread of this topic :

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.
Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.
How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.
The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

He's male because he has XY chromosomes. Pieces of paper make no difference.

People who have had their genitals removed feel they have been butchered. Who are you to tell them there is nothing wrong with their bodies?

There are many ways that we can sort/categorise humans. We participate in both self imposed and externally imposed sorting/categorising. When it comes to pastimes and hobbies, we sort ourselves through opting to participate in specific events and activities. When it comes to jobs and studies, organisation will sort us according to our knowledge and skills. There are some legal restrictions on sorting by certain attributes (eg race, disability) when it comes to accessing employment, education, housing and provision of goods and services.

Humans can be sorted/categorised as being one of two sexes and in line with the traditional definition - a material, binary and immutable characteristic that applies to everyone. There are legal parameters relating to how and when this type of sorting should or should not be applied, in order to prevent discrimination.

Humans can be sorted/categorised by gender identity. There are many different gender identities, they can only be known/determined by each individual and having a gender identity is not universal. There are no specific legal protections relating to gender identity, but there are for gender re-assignment, which refers to people whose gender identity impacts on how they self classify their sex, leading to having or seeking a certificate that states they are the sex that they are not. There are legal parameters relating to how and when this type of sorting should or should not be applied, in order to prevent discrimination.

Having a legal document that claims someone who is the sex that they are not, based on their gender identity has significant ramification for that individual, for others who are of the sex that they are not but have legal documents stating they are, and for organisations who oversee the delivery of eduction, employment, housing and goods and services.

In light of the above, it is nonsense to suggest that the ability to obtain legal documents that declare you to be the sex you are not is of no-one's business other than the holder of the document.

The key laws that are relevant to this, that allows the creation of a legal fiction that people can be the opposite sex, are poorly constructed and because of this, are currently being challenged - in the courts, in parliament/politics, and in the media/on social media. There are conflicting/competing interests between different groups of people - essentially those who seek to ensure that sex remains a protected characteristic and is understood to be binary, immutable and independent of identity, and those who seek to reify gender identity and have it over-ride sex categories.

Many people can understand both sides of the argument and many/most hold strong views about which side is right. However, those who favour determining sex categories by natal sex tend to engage in substantive arguments. Those who favour gender identity trumping natal sex tend to focus on arguments based on perceived oppression hierarchies, claims that one group deserve kindness whilst ignoring what kindness to the other group requires, and also highlighting the harms to one group whilst overlooking, minimising or ignoring the harms to others.

What has been rather enlightening is the number of people who believe that identification such as passports are merely a representation of what someone ‘looks’ like.

Rather than recording the unchangable elements of a person’s identity. Such as date of birth, where born and sex plus some aspects of the body that does not change- eye colour being one. ( putting in coloured contacts does not change the colour of someone’s actual eyes which remain the colour stated when the contacts are removed).

The dismissive use of ‘what does it mean to you’ if a falsehood is recorded on such a document also shows just how little some people think about this. If a person can change one aspect of that document that should be never able to be changed from material reality, why can’t date of birth and place of birth be also changed?

But importantly, there are safety issues that impact us all when a passport is falsified in this way.

We have seen what happens now when media reports that police are searching for a ‘woman’ when it is a male they seek. If passport control is looking for a woman but that male person changes their appearance to male presentation - passport control will not be looking for the correct sex.

Plus again, all those who are supportive seem to forget all the other transgender identities. Including gender fluid.

What passport should a gender fluid person have???

Or perhaps the passport should go back to recording sex accurately and society can accept that some male people and female people choose to ‘expand the bandwidth ‘ of the sex they materially are. Which is what should have happened in the first place.

Fascinating that the poster shouting loudly about all the supposed hatred and bigotry in this thread, who claims to have reported 'lots' of other posts and got them deleted, has themselves had at least four posts deleted, more than everyone else in the thread put together. Oh, with the sole exception of the poster yelling about 'salivating Karen’esque gossip' and telling everyone to be better, who has also now had several posts deleted. Another stunning display by the BeKinders.

This appeared years ago and we still have an almighty fight on our hands because of the nonsense of sex-falsification.

This thread is an example of this, which @Brainworm posted earlier:

However, those who favour determining sex categories by natal sex tend to engage in substantive arguments. Those who favour gender identity trumping natal sex tend to focus on arguments based on perceived oppression hierarchies, claims that one group deserve kindness whilst ignoring what kindness to the other group requires, and also highlighting the harms to one group whilst overlooking, minimising or ignoring the harms to others.

Women being told '#bekind, what difference does it make to you?' and then when we point out what difference it makes to us, we're told we're hateful bigoted Karens. #Bekind only goes one way, and it's never towards women.

This is not to say that sex doesn’t matter. It does matter, of course, for all kinds of reasons. But there is diversity too, and that’s also ok. There are no absolutes. There are men and women and trans people and people with variations in sex development, and possibly other axes of diversity we haven’t discovered yet. And all these things are real and valid.

Oh good we've reached the part where people with DSDs are used to prop up gender ideology.

People with DSDs are nothing to do with gender. They have a medical issue which says nothing about their identity and which proves not that there is diversity in humans sex, but actually that there is not. People with DSDs still have a sex and all DSDs only affect one sex or the other. Humans come in two sexes and infinite personalities, and any personality belongs with either type of sexed body. Everything else is just narrow-minded sexist stereotypes.

So if a woman "lived as a man" can I just say I've worn trousers nearly every day of my life? I'm not married. Short hair. I actually quite like the idea of filling out government surveys as a man and applying for jobs with a bigger salary...

Also aren't I right in thinking men are allowed bigger loans and credit? Hmm...banks must be shitting themselves if they rely on AI and women realise this.

Everyone is either male or female. There is not some mystical third sex. No one in the history of human civilisation has ever changed sex.

🤦🏼‍♀️.

Whistling into the wind…

People with differences in sex development are either male or female, thanks to modern technology.

Either a person has a body formed around the production of small or large gametes regardless of the production status (ie. Whether the body has ever or will ever produce those gametes). No person has ever had a body that produces both small and large gametes.

It is offensive to use a group of people’s medical condition as a means to falsely destabilise the binary nature of sexed human bodies. Humans have many variations of bodies within each sex category. It is not just about ‘chromosomes’. But chromosomes are a fairly reliable predictor, hence they are used often as a ‘shorthand’ description .

”People with differences in sex development are either male or female, thanks to modern technology.”

what did you just write now ? 😂

Brilliant

Thanks to modern technology we know that…Either a person has a body formed around the production of small or large gametes regardless of the production status

It’s quite obvious she meant that, with modern technology we’ve been able to determine that people with DSDs are one of two sexes, not some mysterious third one.

Its seems a clear enough post to me 🤷🏻