To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

It's the dictionary definition of male and female. Human bodies are very complicated so development sometimes goes wrong, but the principle is that if everything goes right a male body ends up capable of producing sperm when sexually mature and a female body is born with a lifetime supply of ova already in the ovaries, a womb etc and after puberty the capacity to become pregnant, give birth and breastfeed. The surgery that some trans-identified people have does not turn a female body into a male one, or vice versa, because that simply isn't possible and almost certainly never will be. This is one of the many reasons that the phrase 'living as a woman' is so infuriating to women, because having a female body and all that that entails is absolutely fundamental to being a woman. It's the one common experience that all 4 billion females on the planet will have.

So something being a real thing depends on how many people do it? What is the critical number of transage or transrace people we'd need, for transage or transrace to become as real as transgender?

Yes there are. I've seen multiple people claiming to be so.

And how do we know there aren't many more, who are too oppressed currently to come out?

Y'know, like being trangender 50 years ago according to you?

Being 'transracial' and 'transabled' are also things that people claim to be.

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you if you keep pretending I’ve said things I haven’t .

Measuring gender dysphoria is extremely relevant as it is a very common “symptom” of being trans, and presence of gender dysphoria is a strong indication of transness. Diagnosis is also a requirement for access to medical services.

That’s not to say that all trajs people have dysphoria or require medical interventions. Just that very many do.

And how do we know there aren't many more, who are too oppressed currently to come out?

If they do I’ll stand corrected.

Until then it’s not a credible proposition and just a lot of silly whataboutery designed to try and make trans people sound ridiculous.

and presence of gender dysphoria is a strong indication of transness

But what exactly is trans? How can something indicate something that doesn't have a definition? What is it indicating?!

Some have gender euphoria and enjoy providing photographic evidence on social media of how it affects them physically when they dress up and especially when they go into female changing rooms and toilets. Yet another reason why most women want to go back to what was the unquestioned status quo until very recently, that males didn't go into those spaces. Any male spotted breaching that taboo was an obvious wrong'un.

So gender dysphoria is a symptom of being trans, but you don't need it to be trans? What is being trans then?

And thankfully very many people who self identify as trans don't have medical or surgical interventions, because they have very poor outcomes: https://statsforgender.org/medical-transition/

No we just don't understand why people who claim to be 'transgender' get to be believed according to you, but not people who claim to be 'transage', 'transracial' or 'transabled'.

All of which involve documented cases. There are examples of 'transabled' people who have persuaded doctors to cut off healthy limbs for example.

development sometimes goes wrong, but the principle is that if everything goes right…

Again, there’s really no place for your value judgements. There is no “right” or “wrong”. Some people just develop differently, which is itself proof that the absolute truisms you want to promote, just don’t always hold. They are general rules that describe the majority. That is all.

why people who claim to be 'transgender' get to be believed according to you

What do you mean by “they get to be believed” exactly?

Quit picking holes, just answer the questions asked. You know what I meant.

I really don’t.

I'm 50, but I don't feel it. I feel around 34/35, apart from certain times of the month when I get distressed by perimenopausal joint pain. As I don't feel like I'm 50 at all, and am distressed by physical reminders of it, can I be transage and be 35 instead?

I'd prefer the career opportunities of 35 compared to 50, if I'm honest. Also, not being socially invisible would be a nice thing to experience again. Having the younger people I work with stop rolling their eyes when it takes me more than a nanosecond to fully grasp a new software would be a bonus as well.

Up until now I didn't realise it was an option to be transage, but if it's a matter of numbers I wonder if there are others on the thread who'd also feel more like their real selves if they were transage? Then together we can make it a thing that spreads and we'll be accepted as our true age?

I might want to change age again when it comes to pension age, though. That would be a de-transition, I guess?

It's not a value judgement. It's a statement of fact and when things go wrong it can lead to medical problems. This has nothing to do with gender identity, although it's often conflated with it.

You do 🙄

But you can't answer the question - colour me surprised

I'd prefer the career opportunities of 35 compared to 50, if I'm honest. Also, not being socially invisible would be a nice thing to experience again. Having the younger people I work with stop rolling their eyes when it takes me more than a nanosecond to fully grasp a new software would be a bonus as well.

I totally support you in all of this. 100%

Of course it’s a value judgement - the clue is in the words “right” and “wrong”. There’s no place for these words at all.
Most people develop like this, some people develop differently. Thats all. There’s no “right” and “wrong” about it (other than in your mind/ judgement).
It has everything to do with this debate, because your whole problem with trans people resides in your desperate desire to hold on to absolutisms regarding sex. But there are no absolutes.

Night y’all.

It’s not a technical term. I was referring to the bodies of trans people who have undergone gender affirming medical interventions - someone referred to these interventions as “butchering” the body- implying these bodies are “butchered”, which obviously has very negative , violent connotations. So I responded by emphasising that there is nothing wrong with these trans bodies, and there’s no need for these sorts of wild projections and value judgements,

I've seen the pictures, and read what percentage of these operations have complications, up to and including fatal ones.

It certainly is violent, but blame the violence of the surgeons, not the words simply describing the reality of what has been done.

Nonsense. Tell the parents of a child who is born with a hole in the heart that there is no place for the words right and wrong when talking about their baby's development. Their child has developed differently and the result is life-threatening. In the case of disorders of sexual development, it may not be life-threatening, but it's certainly going to affect the course of a child's life if they have fertility problems, or hormonal problems such as PCOS, or in the very rare cases where their sex is not obvious from their external body parts at birth.

As for 'there are no absolutes' - yes there are! There are two gametes, large and small. There are no other gametes. Females have large gametes, males have small gametes, and that leads to considerable differences between male and female bodies. What it doesn't lead to is different levels of intelligence or a genetic predisposition to pink or any other stereotyped ideas. Our personalities and characters are extremely varied, regardless of our sex.

@lostcat, can I bring you back to the utopia you think I want:
You said:
"I think you will find the “utopia” is your idea that you will succeed forcing all people to conform to your ideals about gender and sex."

What I want, the idea I have, is that when biological sex matters, when the difference between male and female can be important or even life saving, when the dignity and privacy of female humans matter, that transwomen are not treated as being exactly the same as women. I don't really understand what you mean with my 'ideals about gender and sex', but my ideal is that gender and sex are not treated the same as they aren't ( I think we can all agree on that).
My ideal is also that the fact that humans can't change sex is recognised in law, so that being female is still a protected characteristic and single sex services are legal and can always exclude all male people who identify as transwomen as well as all male people who identify as men or as non binary. Because these services, sports, facilities and healthcare are organised around being female and that should be allowed to exclude all and every male person.

I don't think my ideals are that strange and I know they are shared with the majority of women. Is it utopia, far from it, but it is a start. And I think it is better as a whole if transwomen just accept they are not female, not women and not always welcome. Then we can build a better future for them as well by getting rid of gender expectations and getting in place any support or services they might need for identifying as trans.

On the contrary.

Having a transgender identity is based on a person’s philosophical belief about themselves. Just the same as any other belief that is based on a belief and not supported by material reality.

Therefore someone believing they have a qualification that they do not have is directly equivalent in this case.