To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Why do you think being 'transgender' is any make-believe than being 'trans-Jesus'?

I get it - you think being trans is make-believe.

Nope. I believe it is a mental health issue.

This isn’t a grammatical sentence?

at least 90% of TW retain their penis. They rarely change their bodies

sadly it’s young women who cut off their healthy breasts.

Ok so you agree it’s not a “belief” and that it can be measured then? Like other mental tal health issues? Because before we seemed to be arguing about that?

so you pick holes rather than answers.

Whadda surprise.

I'll ask again ... Why do you think being 'transgender' is any less make-believe than being 'trans-Jesus'?

Relevance ?

I “live as a woman” (was born female, totally identifying as my bio gender, boring, straight, CIS, LTR w the same man for 28 years, totally vanilla).
I do not, however, wear a dress or “live as a woman”. I hate wearing dresses (don’t want to wear’m) & I live as a human being.
It has ZERO impact on my life if sby has F or M on THEIR passport. Why (the fuck) do you care? What’s it to you?

Also this whole “wear a dress” is old, tired, misinformed nonsense. There’s more to female than “wearing a frock”. Do grow up, educate yourself (/-selves) & let others live as they please. It’s none of your business. Just salivating Karen’esque gossip over the hedge shit.

But you don't need to access medical services to be trans. It's very transphobic to suggest that only people who have gender dysphoria or only people who use medication or surgery are trans. The thread is about a male whose only medical intervention has been face surgery, you don't need a dysphoria diagnosis for that just a plastic surgeon and some money. You have just committed transphobia, it's not for you to gatekeep who is or isn't trans. How embarrassing for you.

If insist I am aged 7, change my name, become distressed when people refer to me as my biological age etc, are these measurable behaviours which indicate transageness?

was referring to the bodies of trans people who have undergone gender affirming medical interventions - someone referred to these interventions as “butchering” the body- implying these bodies are “butchered”, which obviously has very negative , violent connotations. So I responded by emphasising that there is nothing wrong with these trans bodies, and there’s no need for these sorts of wild projections and value judgements,

It's absolutely crazy to me that someone would seriously advocate surgery for a mental health problem like you just have.

I just can't Imagine advocating for the removal of healthy organs because of an issue of the mind?!

I agree with lost cat that it is unnecessarily pejorative to refer to elective surgery / body modification as butchering.

I also think it is worryingly euphemistic, to use terms like top and bottom surgery and HRT to describe physical interventions. The terms mastectomy, neo vagina and cross sex hormones should be used and they should be regarded as fundamentally different treatment when used in fundamentally different contexts.

I am very happy to let others live as they please so long as that does not interfere with the rights and safety of others.

And you do not seem to have made any progress in defining what living as a woman means either

Moved from having a body organised around producing small gametes to one organised around having large gametes, gestating a baby, giving birth and producing milk to feed the baby.

But you don't need to access medical services to be trans. It's very transphobic to suggest that only people who have gender dysphoria or only people who use medication or surgery are trans.

I did not say either of these things.

There’s no such thing as being trans-aged.

Are you going back to suggesting that being trans is made up and silly?

I agree with lost cat that it is unnecessarily pejorative to refer to elective surgery / body modification as butchering

If a person has limb dysphoria and a surgeon cuts their legs off due to that then yes, that's butchery.

Who gets to decide that there is no such thing as trans-aged?

a body organised around producing small gametes to one organised around having large gametes

what precisely do you mean by this?

gestating a baby, giving birth, producing milk
I can’t provide any examples of trans women who have been able to gestate a baby.
Who knows what medical technologies will allow for in the future, but certainly that’s in the realm of science fiction for now.

Trans women cannot gestate babies or give birth; no one says otherwise, but neither of those things are a requirement for a f marker on your passport, nor should they be.

Empirical reality, which is tracked through scientific observation.

There’s more to female than “wearing a frock”. It's the gender crowd who want to make what you wear the definition of whether you are male or female, take it up with them. It is them who have attempted and are attempting to change 'woman' from a word meaning an adult human female to a word meaning people of either sex who dress, act or are named a certain way.

And it absolutely does impact on your life if some men are now women. There is now no word which defines what we used to call women. So now there are no hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres, changing rooms for that group of people, of which you are one. Though since you chose to use a misogynist slur, maybe not.

Even if you personally are privileged enough not to be impacted by the removal of all single sex spaces and services, some women are not so fortunate, and they matter at least as much as a male who thinks some facial surgery makes him a woman. Maybe you need to educate yourself on why women only spaces and services exist at all. Spoiler alert - it isn't (or wasn't) for validating males feelings

That makes no sense. How is that criteria that 'trans-age' doesn't exist, but 'transgender' does?

But the same could be said for sex? You're either male or female, no matter how much you wish to be the other.

I'm sure that historically the words for transgender and all the associated identities didn't exist. People were either men or women. Maybe transage is the same. We just haven't accepted it yet?

Or maybe, your body is your body. Male or female. Whatever age it is. And no amount of wishing it wasn't can change that.

Being trans isn't made up, because people who wish to be and present themselves as the opposite sex do exist. That obviously doesn't mean they are the opposite sex.

I'm pretty sure there have been cases of (very disturbing) adults who 'identify as' being children. So that isn't made up either. Those people exist. And people who have 'identified as' being different races too.

Nobody can change sex or race, or change to a younger age. So why do you think trans-age is made up but trans isn't? I genuinely don’t see the difference. They are all physical realities that cannot be changed. They are all examples of somebody believing they belong to a category of human being that they literally can't belong to.

Because there are no trans-aged people (apart from maybe the odd silly story of isolated individuals in the daily mail), but there are a hella lot of transgender people-everywhere- who have been scientifically observed and studied since at least the 1950s.

But you said that being able to measure gender dysphoria was relevant. Now you're saying it's not relevant? These goal posts are quite moveable, aren't they? Bit like the definition of transness.

It's be great if you could explain how transgender is a real thing but transage isn't, because I can't think of one reason why one is a real thing and one is made up and silly.

How transagephobic of you.