To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

Well this is some progress I suppose. I would be inclined to take it, except that it would be palpably unreasonable to require trans people to out themselves as trans on their identity documents.

A passport is also used for identification purposes. Of course sex should be on there. You just shouldn’t be able to use a legal document as a portal to validate your fantasy. No serious society would ever allow this.

To be honest, if your ‘womanhood’ relies on paperwork - you’re a man.

validate your fantasy

being trans is not a fantasy. This is what prejudice looks like

As if they aren’t aren’t ‘outed’ by coming across anyone with functioning eyesight

What utter nonsense. Nobody can change sex. If we allow people to have F on their passport when they are physically M, why should we stop them changing their date of birth? What about allowing them to identify as having a disability and appropriating the pitifully few adjustments we make for people with genuine disabilities? What about allowing them to identify as belonging to an ethnic minority and represent that group, as Rachel Dolezal did? What if I identify as having a professional qualification I don't actually have and am not qualified to get? Is it OK for me to go out and pilot a commercial plane because I feel I should have been a pilot, or carry out brain surgery because I'd have liked to be a neurosurgeon?

I see where you are coming from with your logic, but the thing is - none of those examples have anything to do with being trans.
There is no equivalent.

Oh OP, you’re years behind some of us on here, but welcome aboard and keep reading.

True, it's not always AGP. The man OP is talking about fits the classic AGP pattern though. Married for years with teenage kids, post many photos of outfits and makeup, massive new wardrobe, no "reassignment" surgery.

Or ears.

I mean absolutely no disrespect but this is genuinely the most ridiculous comment I've ever read. How you can compare the colour of your hair to the sex that you were born is utterly bat shit !!

Well this is some progress I suppose

how on earth do you work that out….progress??? 😒

It is absolutely equivalent.

Each individual is born on a specific day. And as one of two human sexes, which cannot change.

^*validate your fantasy

being trans is not a fantasy. This is what prejudice looks like*^

The fantasy being referred to in the first quote is the fantasy of being a woman when you are a male person, it is not referring to being transgender.

Thinking you are now the sex you are not, is a fantasy, unless people really want to argue you can change your biological chromosomes by changing your identification papers. Feeling you are transgender is not a fantasy, it is a belief expressed by the transperson about themselves. But it is also just that, a belief. And it is also a belief not shared by other people and no agreement with the government (the GRC or passport) can force other people to share that belief.

I think transwomen will have to realise at some point their utopia of being seen as women is just that, an utopia that won't happen. There will always be women who will leave, walk out, set up services on their own. What was that number again that lesbians had to stay under to be able to have meetings with no male people present? Under 25 or something?

This whole place is Mumsnet whatever the board. That means likely to be related to women in general.There is no woman here, or in prison, who might not want to be informed that male prisoners can be incarcerated with woman so long as they identify as women. That is not a ‘feminist’ issue.

It is absolutely equivalent

But it’s not though, because there’s no equivalent to being trans for age or disability or any of the other characteristics mentioned.

Being transgender is not a “belief” either,

I think you will find the “utopia” is your idea that you will succeed forcing all people to conform to your ideals about gender and sex.

How is "trans" different, exactly?

Age - each individual is born on a specific day.

Sex - each individual is born as one of two human sexes, which cannot change.

How is your sex any more important than your eye colour on a travel document? Is the photo with the related biometric information not enough?

Because there’s no such thing as being trans-aged.

But it does impact on all of us, when biological males are legally recognised as fenale

There most certainly is.

Rachel Dolezal, as already mentioned, got a job reserved for a person of colour by pretending that she met that criterion.

Transage - those with a strong stomach can look up Six-year old transgender 'Stefonknee Wolscht' who self-defines as a 6yo girl in spite of being a male born in the early 1960s, or this one, which is also pretty bad: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5089529/University-failed-male-student-baby-role-play-fetish.html Both in Canada which seems to have protected many obvious fruitloops at the expense of the rest of the population (see also the Yaniv case).

Transabled: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies This is quite obviously a medical/mental health condition but people suffering from it are keen to be recognised as having a valid identity.

How can you be born in the wrong sex body? How is that possible? What is the 'you' that's in the wrong body, a soul or something? That's a religious belief. You are your body, there is no 'you' not in your body.

And if you believe some people are born in the wrong body, how do you know whether it's the wrong or right one? If a person is born with no eyes are they in the wrong body, or is that the right body for them? How about people born in an Indian body in Qatar, are they in the right body, the kind that's used for servitude? How about people born with a degenerative illness, say Duchenne muscular dystrophy, are they in the body they're meant to have - one that will slowly work less well until it stops working and kills them before they reach the age of 25? 'Born in the wrong body' is such an offensive idea.

There are some isolated individuals out there claiming weird things and being written about in the daily mail and other silly tabloids.

This is not the equivalent of being trans. It’s really offensive that you are drawing these parallels.

Being trans is a legitimate and widespread form of human diversity that affects a substantial minority of people and exists in all cultures. Like sexuality.

That is a concern, but is it any different from eg Dave committing offences, changing name to Gordon and acquiring ID documents in the new name?

Being gender nonconforming is a feature of many societies which have very rigid gender roles and/or where same-sex orientation is taboo. Nobody in the history of humankind has ever changed sex. Being female and male is a biological matter. We know the differences it makes to our bodies. In every society and every era some people have tried to say that these physical differences are tied up with other things, such as being unsuitable to do certain kinds of work or having to have a particular hairstyle. Inevitably some people find these constraints very difficult to live with. Some people (almost all male) respond to them by developing a sexual fetish tied up with gender roles, usually starting very early in life. The rational response to all of this is to get rid of gender stereotypes and develop a tolerance of gender nonconforming behaviour.