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To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

1000 replies

Brla · 27/12/2024 21:16

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

OP posts:
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17
Brefugee · 28/12/2024 18:47

Helleofabore · 28/12/2024 18:23

I am keen to know what ‘hate’ forum posters are being sent from.

That statement pretty much puts the pp’s posts into all the context that is needed though.

That will be the DARVO. I assume the bat signal went out on all the bike GC subreddits

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/12/2024 18:47

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 18:23

You say that this person is a friend, that they are very nice and that they are much happier now.
And yet you still think you should centre your own discomfort with their personal identity documents? Because you are a woman?

Edited

Yes, why not? Because it's not one isolated case. The OP's personal experience of this one male friend now identifying as a woman has opened her eyes to the fact that this is not a simple issue and there are potentially problems for all women from self-ID of gender. There are also problems linked to how we try to minimise the effects of male violence.

In the days when crime statistics were reliable - i.e. crimes described as committed by females didn't include crimes committed by males who now identify as female - the pattern which showed up in every country of the world and every era is that virtually all sexual crime is committed by males and 80% minimum of violent crie is committed by males. We all know this.

Not all men and boys are violent and/or predatory, but the ones that are pose a big risk to vulnerable people who cross their path. This includes children, women and people with disabilies. Safeguarding measures are based on the principle that we have to minimise the chance of one of these males attacking. But now that it's been accepted that some males can ID as female and this can't be questioned they can get into spaces and services where vulnerable groups were previously safe.

Not only can a male say 'I am a woman/girl' and this can't be questioned, they are not required to change anything at all if they don't feel like it. Most go for a change of name and/or clothing. Some take hormones so they can get a vague approximation of breasts. A few have various forms of surgery (and the fewer the better, given the considerable risks involved and the very poor outcomes).

So when an obvious male walks into the female changing room or demands to be in a group for female rape survivors or support after miscarriage or with breastfeeding, they can't be refused. What they want counts for more than what the women and girls need, which is safety, privacy and dignity.

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 18:51

TheKeatingFive · 28/12/2024 18:10

Either answer the question or don't. Up to you.

If you want to defend women being locked up with trans-identified men, go right ahead.

So you are extrapolating on my behalf. That's typical.

Brefugee · 28/12/2024 18:54

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 18:51

So you are extrapolating on my behalf. That's typical.

Your refusal to answer leaves us no option.

Nameychangington · 28/12/2024 18:54

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 18:51

So you are extrapolating on my behalf. That's typical.

If you're able to explain how men become women or why we should pretend they do, please do, then no one need extrapolate. If you don't explain what you mean and just chuck around insults with no evidence, people can only guess.

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 18:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Snapncrackle · 28/12/2024 18:59

I did read somewhere that once they have a new passport / id any crimes committed in previous names aren’t searchable if a company’s is doing a DBS check

so if you committed sexual assault / rape against someone in your past and then applied to work in say care and needed a DBS they wouldn’t necessarily know about your previous name ( this may have changed in recent years )

and isn’t dead naming someone a crime
I’m sure people have been arrested for calling people by there previous “dead” name

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 18:59

Nameychangington · 28/12/2024 18:41

Do you think that because this person is a man (and 'nice') he should be allowed identity documents which state wishes instead of facts? If I am much happier saying I'm 15 years old should my passport say I am? Several posters have outlined the problem with that approach, and they're a bit more substantial than 'discomfort'.

I think trans women should be able to change their identity docs to reflect their gender.

HTH (I know it won’t).

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 19:01

Snapncrackle · 28/12/2024 18:59

I did read somewhere that once they have a new passport / id any crimes committed in previous names aren’t searchable if a company’s is doing a DBS check

so if you committed sexual assault / rape against someone in your past and then applied to work in say care and needed a DBS they wouldn’t necessarily know about your previous name ( this may have changed in recent years )

and isn’t dead naming someone a crime
I’m sure people have been arrested for calling people by there previous “dead” name

Reference? DBS forms require production of all previous names
More fake news

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 28/12/2024 19:01

I think trans women should be able to change their identity docs to reflect their gender, absolutely yes

i wouldn’t have an issue with a ‘gender’ question on a passport…but at the moment its just male or female

VarneytheVamp · 28/12/2024 19:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

The body you are born in is your right body. Where’s the proof you can be born in the wrong body? In the absence of proof, why should anyone be compelled to go along with this?

Snapncrackle · 28/12/2024 19:04

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 19:01

Reference? DBS forms require production of all previous names
More fake news

I just remember reading about it a few years ago
and what’s to stop anyone lying and saying that my name I don’t have any other names

TheKeatingFive · 28/12/2024 19:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How does this work then? let's break it down ...

What is the 'wrong body'? How is it that some individuals are born in the 'wrong body'? How does cosmetic surgery make it a 'right body'? Why should women accept that cosmetic surgery can make a man a woman?

Brefugee · 28/12/2024 19:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Define "hate" - that would help

PoissonOfTheChrist · 28/12/2024 19:13

Some individuals are born in the wrong sex body

No. That is impossible.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 28/12/2024 19:16

Some individuals are born in the wrong sex body.

They are not. It's not possible.

FOJN · 28/12/2024 19:18

Marblesbackagain · 28/12/2024 19:01

Reference? DBS forms require production of all previous names
More fake news

This is simply not true. The sensitive applications route allows someone to keep their trans status confidential but if they do not disclose previous names on their application then any convictions in that name will not be disclosed at all. If all the ID (including birth certificate) an applicant provides is in their new name then there is no way of linking their birth name and new name.

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 19:19

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 18:59

I think trans women should be able to change their identity docs to reflect their gender.

HTH (I know it won’t).

Edited

Every person should be entitled to identity documents that accurately reflect their identity. And if we afford the same courtesy to trans people, I’m very sure the sky won’t fall in.

TheKeatingFive · 28/12/2024 19:21

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 19:19

Every person should be entitled to identity documents that accurately reflect their identity. And if we afford the same courtesy to trans people, I’m very sure the sky won’t fall in.

Legal documents should reflect scientific reality.

Otherwise they are pointless

VarneytheVamp · 28/12/2024 19:23

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 19:19

Every person should be entitled to identity documents that accurately reflect their identity. And if we afford the same courtesy to trans people, I’m very sure the sky won’t fall in.

My dad’s occupation is down on my birth certificate as a joiner but I identify more with the upper classes, can I have my b/c changed so that it says he was a lord?

StepAwayFromMyCoffee · 28/12/2024 19:26

I think it’s disgraceful. He’s not a woman and his passport shouldn’t pander to his ridiculous beliefs.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/12/2024 19:26

30 years ago psychiatrists, psychologists and other professional people who had dealings with what would now be called trans-identifying people knew that this was primarily a male issue. A tiny number of little boys had gender confusion which generally became apparent before puberty. The number of girls who were experiencing extreme distress because they were female and didn't want to be was minuscule - no more than half the number of boys.

In both groups clinicians found that the vast majority of both boys and girls outgrew their distress once they were through puberty. Therapy before then was largely aimed at getting the parents and siblings to accept the child's gender nonconforming behaviour as perfectly normal and acceptable and working with identifying and helping with any other issues causing the child's distress, e.g. sexual abuse, depression and anxiety following a traumatic family split or bereavement or bullying at school, an early realisation that they might be same-sex attracted.

The vanishingly small number of girls and barely larger number of boys who still felt they 'should' have been the opposite sex were moved on to adult gender services and some of them ended up with hormone and/or surgical treatment to make them look more the way they thought they always should have looked. As I understand it, however, an absolutely crucial part of their therapy was extensive discussions about the limitations of this treatment. They had to be very clear that they understood they would still be female or male and always would be, no matter what was being done to their bodies.

Something changed about a quarter of a century ago. Medical arrogance seems to have had a lot to do with it, unfortunately, just as it did with lobotomies. Children started being given puberty blockers and moving onto hormone therapy instead of going through normal puberty. Males, mostly middle-aged or older, were finding it easier to get surgical and hormone treatment, even though there wasn't solid research evidence that it would improve their quality of life.

Also, the numbers of girls identifying as trans, mostly around the age when puberty was getting under way, started to rocket. Even though it is well known that teenage girls are very susceptible to social contagion (see Dancing Mania in the Middle Ages for an early example) nobody seems to have wondered why this was happening and just started dishing out testosterone and double mastectomies. Obvious possible explanations, such as the influence of social media and the effect of easy access to internet porn on the behaviour of boys and men towards women and girls, were ignored.

And here we are now. Middle-aged males who built their careers as men, with the support of wives, who fathered children, suddenly identify as female and expect to be able to win places on female sports teams, prizes for female business leaders, female-only MP selection committees, and so on. Some of them have the effrontery to try to get their children to refer to them as 'mother'.

But where are the middle-aged women coming out as transmen? Why are their numbers so tiny even now that there would be no stigma? There's a puzzle. Surely the answer can't be that the transwomen coming out in later years are actually acting out a fetish, a thing which is vanishingly rare in females?

Chersfrozenface · 28/12/2024 19:26

Lostcat · 28/12/2024 19:19

Every person should be entitled to identity documents that accurately reflect their identity. And if we afford the same courtesy to trans people, I’m very sure the sky won’t fall in.

Say I'm 52 but identify as 68. Should I be able to get ID with that age and a birth date in 1956, and thus claim a state pension?

Marcavara · 28/12/2024 19:29

Nice to see the bingo card is being filled @Marblesbackagain .

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