To not understand how this means a man can get a female passport?

[Brla]

A close friend of DH recently came out as trans. He’s had surgery abroad (FFS I think it’s called) and has set up an Instagram account with videos of the process and many, many, many outfits and make up videos. He has two sons and was married for 14 years before this.

I don’t really have an opinion as such on being trans. I think it’s likely that it’s a genuine feeling that I just can’t understand as I haven’t experienced it and don’t think it’s necessarily just a mental illness.

I don’t understand though that this person has not had his genitals removed or changed (not sure how you would express it) and yet has still got a new passport now saying F. Am I being thick for being unable to get my head around this? He still has a penis so surely that means he is male? How can he have had a passport issued as female?! Do you literally just need to apply and say you’re now presenting as female?

It is a very good question OP.

I am a bit late to the thread but look forward to the many detailed and scientifically supported answers that I am sure you will attract from those who will state that of course a male person should be able to claim that they are female if they feel like it, that will be through out the 9 or so pages already answered.

"Thankfully I have reported a lot and they do get taken down. I am not scrolling back you are well able to. But as I said thankfully a lot get deleted on reporting"

I have spotted one deleted post on the whole thread and reading between the lines it appears to be from a poster making accusations about transphobia.

It's certainly not the case that 'lots have been taken down'. I wonder if the poster knows that deleted posts don't get removed completely, instead the content is replaced with a notice stating it has been deleted.

This is just bizarre.

You're saying any thread on MN clearly has hate and bigotry on it? Baby names, Christmas, the litter box, all full of bile and bigotry? I'm surprised you want to hang out in such an awful forum.

Can't wait to find out what usual hate forums the call to arms has supposedly gone out to. MN is the biggest female dominated space online, what other forums do you think we need to back us up when we're trying to have a sensible discussion about a matter of public policy? Do you think we need men to come over and make our points for us, or what?

It's all coming across a bit paranoid.

That's nice.

Either answer the question or don't. Up to you.

If you want to defend women being locked up with trans-identified men, go right ahead.

So hysterical accusations of 'hate' with literally nothing to back this up?

Totally reasonable 🫠

It’s always the same. They never answer anything. The thing is, painting anyone who doesn’t agree as a hateful bigot doesn’t wash anymore.

Exactly

But they have nothing else

Of course it doesn't work and that was PP's point.

It's a TRA argument that if you ask for a female health care worker and get a tw then there's no need to point out that he's a man because you can simply say you're unhappy with that particular 'woman' and ask for someone else.

It doesn't work theoretically because of all the reasons you give and it doesn't work practically because a) you run the risk of being accused of transphobia and being refused treatment and b) it opens the door to patients refusing care from people for actually discriminatory reasons e.g. racism.

I am reading from the front and back and there seem to be very few posts deleted.

I suspect some posters like to make untrue negative generalisations based on their very own narrow definition of hate and transphobia and over exaggerate it to suit their political agenda.

It's you who's bigging up the law in ireland. Do you stand by it or not?

"I can see the usual tactics are being employed"

People are stating that they don't think males can become female and because of this, should not have documentation that indicates they are. People have provided reasoned arguments as to why they think this. Does this count as 'tactics'. I think it counts as attempt to persuade people who hold differing views.

Why don't you provide compelling argument as to how males can become female or why this isn't relevant to the arguments being raised. Accusations of hate, aren't likely to influence, unless there is evidence of hate. Asking people to 'be kind' to one group, without evidencing an understanding of the tangible negative impacts this 'kindness' has on another is also likely to have limited effect.

None of the following represent sufficient challenge to the concerns that have been clearly articulated:

• trans women are women. They are not natal females and this is the concern
• trans women exist. Of course they do. The concerns wouldn't arise if they didn't
• we shouldn't have to debate their right to exist. None of the sound arguments are based on their right to exist.
• the arguments are hateful and aren't worthy of attention. It is not hateful to want to create provisions and services for natal women
• the volume of posts highlighting transwomen aren't natal females is the problem, more than the actual reality that this is the case

But there aren't ‘transwomen and ‘other women’. Transwomen are male.

I am sure I said this a few days ago but if you have to use the word bigot you have lost the argument. It has become such a pointless word. So someone else has strong beliefs that you find unreasonable - that goes both ways

You say that this person is a friend, that they are very nice and that they are much happier now.
And yet you still think you should centre your own discomfort with their personal identity documents? Because you are a woman?

I am keen to know what ‘hate’ forum posters are being sent from.

That statement pretty much puts the pp’s posts into all the context that is needed though.

if we allow people to reject trans women, we allow them to reject all other women too.

No, because in the case of the rejection of the transwoman, they are rejecting a man.

I think its important to base your assertions on facts not feelings. Perhaps you could take some time to red the attached report on whats actually happening in Irish prisons pertaining to male prisoners who identify as female. It’s frightening to think the safety of vulnerable female prisoners is placed below the desires of males.
https://thecountess.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Sex-and-Gender-in-Irish-Prisons_PDF.pdf

So he is a bloke that wears a dress ?He wants his cake and to eat it.

I had to trawl through 7 pages of prejudice to find one trans supportive post.

It's not prejudice to recognise the fact that humans can't change sex.

Because they can't change sex, any official ID that shows an individual's sex needs to show the immutable, unchangeable sex that individual has had since conception and will have until death. Regardless of choices as to name, clothing, adornment and/or bodily modifications.

Do you think that because this person is a man (and 'nice') he should be allowed identity documents which state wishes instead of facts? If I am much happier saying I'm 15 years old should my passport say I am? Several posters have outlined the problem with that approach, and they're a bit more substantial than 'discomfort'.

I think Marbles may have several deleted posts on this thread. I guess they must be transphobic posts if that is all that are getting deleted in their opinion.

The "gotcha" here is you saying how great Ireland is for women while not disagreeing that it is Hugely problematic for women prisoners to be incarcerated with the likes of Barbie K.

We are all clear on that.

How we deal with individuals is what counts. It is clear where female prisoners come in the pecking order.

Being trans supportive does not always mean fully affirming a person’s identity. Perhaps if someone only has the philosophical belief that supporting transgender people involves only ever affirming their identity in every situation then it is them who holds the harmful beliefs for society and for people with transgender identities.

And if supporting the needs of female people over gender identity when sex does matter is considered prejudice by someone, doesn’t that show ‘prejudice’ accusations to be mere projection ? Because if someone’s philosophical belief is being prioritised ahead of needs supported by statistics and science, isn’t that rather significant ?