to want to see my Dad without my (awful) stepmum sometimes?

[LoveIsAVerb]

Hi all. I'm new here, go gentle!

Around this time of year, I have my annual argument with my stepmother. It was pretty low-key this year: at our annual pre-Christmas get together, she made a few snarky comments; I told her to pipe down after the final snarky comment; and she apologised. (More detail on that later!)

But it's raised a perennial issue: my stepmother and I fundamentally do not get on, and I would really like to see my Dad occasionally without her being there. But this never happens. Around this time every year, following my annual tiff with my stepmum, my sister (42, two kids) and I (40, no kids) have a word with my Dad - just "hey Dad, it would be really nice to hang out together without stepmum being there". After that, we usually have ONE walk together, he's a bit awkward about the whole thing, and then it just goes back to normal, i.e. her always being there.

It's not just that she's always there when we see him, either. Even when we call his mobile, he always puts us on speaker so that she can be involved in the conversation. We hardly ever even get to text privately; he routes all texts through the group family chat, which includes him, her, my sister and I, and my stepsisters.

Dad and stepmum have been married for 20-odd years. He left my mother for her (he was having an affair with her). I'm not particularly arsed about that tbh; mum also had affairs. I'd like to state upfront that I haven't put her into some "Evil Stepmother" trope; I'm happy that he's found someone. It's not the "stepmum" factor; it's specifically about HER, as an individual. We have wildly different values. She comes from Old Money and is, frankly, a massive snob. (My Dad came from nothing, for context, but made pretty good money by working his way up in a company, back when that was a possibility!)

This clash in values tends to be where our arguments stem from. This year, for example, at the annual Christmas get-together:

• One of the dogs spilt my sister's drink over the table. It's this super-expensive, ornate, carved wooden table with a glass top. Stepmum FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, literally shrieking, talking about how they'd need to get it professionally cleaned etc etc. It was literally a bit of prosecco. My sister was mortified and left soon after.
• My stepsister's fella (early 30s), an ordinary lower-middle-class bloke from Birmingham, mentioned that his mother isn't much of a wine drinker, she thinks Echo Falls is brilliant. To which, again, stepmother SHRIEKS with laughter. She's literally a millionnaire. Laughing at this ordinary working-class woman who doesn't know about wine. It made me feel physically sick. Bearing in mind, too, that my partner (50f) was also there, and she grew up in care, on the absolute bones of her arse; Echo Falls would've been a distant fucking DREAM.
• My sister and I gave Dad and stepmum a hamper with loads of posh food in it for Xmas. I wrapped it in cellophane and ribbons and whatnot. I made a joke about how shit I am at wrapping things (context: I'm from South Wales, self-deprecation is endemic to our humour). She shrieks: "Oh I bet you relished the opportunity to skive off work for a bit to wrap it!" I work 60-hour weeks for a human rights organisation. She is an ex-doctor, and (endemic to the profession, in my experience!) therefore thinks she is better than everyone else. (This final comment was when I told her to pipe down, and she apologised, while shrieking.)

I just feel like whenever I'm at her (perfect show-home) house, I'm playing a bit-part in a fantasy M&S advert - with her at the centre. I never feel comfortable there, because if a drink gets spilled or you get too close to some expensive item of homeware, all hell breaks loose. Don't get me wrong: she cooks, she hosts, that's very generous of her. But it's The Stepmum Show, constantly. She takes over the conversation, she's not funny (unforgivably, imo!), she's just incredibly UP herself - and, as I said, a massive snob. The above is the tip of the iceberg, honestly. She literally thinks people who weren't born into inherited wealth are basically lazy and stupid.

She's always been a bit weird with me tbh. E.g. when I was about 20, we had a blazing row about something or other, and she apologised afterwards and told me straight-up that she is intimidated by my intelligence. I mean honestly, wtf?! Even if you FELT it, would you SAY it?! But she does seem majorly insecure, like she had a very good education but was essentially educated above her intelligence because her parents were rich; she seems very uncomfortably with the fact (which I LOVE) that intelligence is pretty equally distributed among the population, and you cannot fucking BUY it, however hard you try.

I'm ranting, sorry!

Everyone who's met her agrees that she's awful, a snob, and wtf is Dad doing with her - but Dad seems, or acts, oblivious. As I said, he's from a very working-class, South Wales background. He never sees his friends anymore, really; they obviously think she's a stuck-up bitch. He is also more or a less a functioning alcoholic at this point. Getting slowly sozzled on posh wine while she runs the Stepmum Show and offends everyone, seemingly obliviously.

One more example of what she's like: a few years back, she and my Dad went on a weekend away for his best mate's 60th. She took one of his childhood friends aside and said: "Do you mind not talking about your childhood memories this weekend? I don't really like hearing about times before [Dad] and I were together."

My sister is a peacekeeper, plus Dad and stepmum do a huge amount to help with their kids (she is not entirely evil - she is very generous in helping with the kids). So she is not one to rock the boat. She also lives very close to them, and he helps her out a lot, sees her a lot, etc. I only live about 20 miles away, mind, but he never comes up here (and when he does, it's always with stepmum).

I'm wondering wtf to do, tbh. I love my Dad and I know he loves me. More than that, we LIKE each other; we get along great. But she just takes over every single interaction and it's really getting on my tits and affecting my relationship with him.

I'm not stupid: I know I'm not gonna change her and he's not gonna leave her. So I'm trying to think what to do that wouldn't just be me ranting. I was thinking of maybe writing him an email (presuming she doesn't check his emails as well as answer his phone, but who knows, honestly). Just explaining how I feel. Especially, explaining that I'm not avoiding HIM (I'm really worried that he thinks I am), that the problem isn't HIM, it's HER (though the problem is also, let's face it, him being a bit fucking useless in a Man way). And just asking if we can spend time together without her. But I don't want to make his life more difficult for him, either. But an email could help because he wouldn't immediately FORGET it (which he has a tendency to do with phone calls, probably because of the whole high-functioning alcoholic thing), and he could read back over it, and tbh I'm better at communicating via writing than in person / on the phone anyway, and he could have some time to process it?

Is this just a losing battle, do I just need to get over it?!

Thanks so much in advance for any advice / shared stories / etc! <3

My sister is a doctor. We’re from what mumsnet would describe as ‘lower middle class’

state educated, parents from working class backgrounds who did very well in business. So we weren’t poor by any means.

she often talked about how lots of her cohort were from very posh (to us) backgrounds. They’d all been skiing twice a year from a young age ( we’d learned in secondary school). All were going to expensive restaurants and bars as students. My dsis very much felt like one of the ‘poor ones’ ( but in our small town were considered well-off)

obviously it’s not ALL of them and I’m sure there will be loads of posters coming on to say how they walked 10 miles a day barefoot to medical school. But certainly when my sister and I went to uni, much was made of extra curricular activities which favour privately educated kids.

so as you say @LoveIsAVerb its a toxic mix of coming mainly from very privileged backgrounds, but then being told you got there because you are the ‘elite’ of society. No wonder SOME doctors have massive egos!

Thank you so much for your comments, everyone - even the difficult ones. I will reply to specific ones in a bit, but just wanted to say a generic "thank you" to all, even if I don't respond to each one individually. I really appreciate people taking the time over the festive period to engage with a stranger about all of this! As I said, I'm not a MumsNet user (until now, at least), so maybe it's always like this in here (long, thought-out, considered replies), but it's really useful - even when it's hard to hear.

CC @Poppyseeds79 (re: "You seem massively fond of using 30 words where 3 will suffice"!)

Sorry, both. I can hand on heart say I've never been a Tumblr user (is Tumblr still going, did it not go the way of MySpace etc.?)!

The endless quips are a character flaw - unfortunately, I probably am like that irl! I am not half as ranty irl as I have been here, though. I find it bizarre that people would think that anyone would communicate entirely in rants offline, purely because they've been ranting about something irritating in an anonymous online forum... Who does that irl, really?!

But I take your point about writing a lot, and I have also used a lot of CAPITAL LETTERS AND EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!!!!, which I can see may be, uh, somewhat irritating. I said this earlier, but I am a writer and editor for a living, and I am currently writing a book (agented, contracted, etc.). All of which is to say: I am actually pretty good at writing! But when I'm off the clock, I'm a lot more lax about the rules that I studiously follow when it actually matters, i.e. at work-work and in my creative work.

Either way: I understand that, to some, this has been very annoying to read - please don't feel obliged!

On the substantive / advisory bits of your post - yes, this sounds like sensible advice, thank you!

Nope, not in the slightest. I left my local comp at 16. I later did an Access course to HE and attended uni as mature student, whilst working and being a single mum.

Yeah, my Dad and I are scarily similar in some ways tbh...

I think there's a lot of wisdom in your comment - thank you. Agree that only he and I can sort this out. I think I need to separate these two issues, if possible: (1) my relationship with my Dad, and (2) my dislike of his partner. Because they are, in fact, separate issues.

"Looking at it logically, you already make several excuses not to see him on his own (don't like football / can't ask him to help with DIY because 'lesbian butch' partner)"

Huh, I hadn't thought of it like that. On the footie thing: perhaps I was holding out for some kind of "perfect" scenario where we'd both be doing something we enjoy - but now that I've actually written that down, I've realised how ridiculous an expectation it is! The DIY thing was more "I genuinely don't need him for that", but perhaps I should basically lie and pretend I do - that seems to be what a few people here are suggesting? But then part of me does resent having to pretend to need a man around to do man things likek DIY, just so that I can see my own father?! But then again, maybe that's just the way it is...

You're absolutely right about the stepmum/pub/alcoholic situation, too. Urgh...

I guess it's all relative, right?! But actually yeah, maybe she's more upper-middle class. It depends where you're from, though, I think! From my experience attending English universities, for example, what counts as middle-class in South Wales would barely constitute the gutter in Southern England... 😅

I have noticed before that the working classes and the upper classes (landed gentry, sorta vibe) seem to have more in common than the middle classes. Isn't that odd?! More hedonistic, less keeping-up-with-the-whoevers?!

Thank you for your suggestions!

Thank you for this, I very much appreciate your honesty!

Yeah, I am very quick to anger. I don't think this is going to change, either, unfortunately. Not to make excuses, but it seems to be 50/50 genetics and nurture (you should meet my family - I'm the chilled one, astoundingly!). On the plus side, I'm very quick to get over the anger, too. Small mercies?! 😅

Sorry if my previous comments offended you. I meant specifically the people who I've met who work for animal/children-focused nonprofits, and/or activists who tend to focus on animals/kids (so not teachers/nurses/social workers/etc). But it was still a sweeping statement, and I should be more careful with those! And if you were to say that everyone from the charity sector are pen pushers, well... there might be some truth in that 😅It's a broad church though innit?!

if everyone perceives her in the same manner - why would your sister leave her children with her?! Not to derail but that’s a very odd perspective to have that’s someone’s a horrible person but grand to mind my kids! But obviously not your choice!

My sister and I are wildly different people. She likes to keep the peace, her relationships are fairly transactional, she's more interested in practical help (babysitting etc.) than worried about the kind of thoughts / attitudes / etc. that others might instil in her kids (which would be a much bigger concern for me, if I had kids). So the fact that Dad + stepmum will babysit for her is way more important to her than any dodgy attitudes our stepmum holds which might affect the children. We have quite different values, my sister and I! And tbf, stepmum is NOT a horrible person, I don't think - she has some good qualities, like I said - one of which is looking after the kids a lot, I guess?!

I can’t recall but is there any possibility of neurodivergence playing a role within the dynamic between you?

• I had ADHD before it was cool, ok?! Ha, sorry! But yes, I was diagnosed with ADHD a very long time ago. The OG version (hyper/impulsive), not the "new" variety that they think women/girls suffer with more (inattentive/whatever). I take medication. Though sometimes they think I have Bipolar 2, which would be very fun, as ADHD meds exacerbate hypomania... I was also diagnosed with an impulse-control disorder at the age of 12, which I still have. All the fun stuff..!

• She does not have any neuro-anything or mental illnesses.

• Dad had a traumatic brain injury about 40 years ago and has ADHD-like traits as a result (he didn't have those traits before, apparently).

• I'm sure the above play a role in the dynamic, but I'm not sure how, precisely! (Any insights welcome..!)

Thank you so much for your advice. Yeah I am veering towards a clear chat, too, so I know where I am, basically. And then go from there, I guess.

Really appreciate your insights, thanks!

Stellar advice and bang-on observations here, thank you!!!

This sounds very similar to my own experience / background! I think I maybe focused too much on money in and of itself in my original post, when it's much, much more than that; it's the sense of entitlement, of ease in all situations, of (over-?!)confidence, of - to use an overused words - privilege. Not just capital-as-in-money, but cultural capital. It imbues everything.

Of course not all doctors are dicks, of course not all wealthy people are dicks, etc. etc., not all men, blah blah. But yes, it's a toxic mix, for sure!

My partner is a lecturer (went to uni under New Labour, escaped abject poverty, etc.). Obviously very few working-class kids go to uni now, but she can spot the one in each year group a mile off - and obviously she doesn't have access to their bank accounts or family trees! It's maybe more like "if you know, you know".

I'm not sure what you mean by very few working-class kids go to uni now? The UK is at nearly 40% of kids attending university. Are you saying most of those aren't working class? If your partner whose apparently a lecturer thinks that's the case? Then I'd be rather worried on their level of basic general knowledge 🤔

I do think the issue is privilege, rather than medicine itself. As a working-class doctor, your original comments rather grated. I don't recognise your stereotype in most of my colleagues (or those who are currently treating me) but that may be because I work in a relatively deprived part of the country rather than London.

(As a working-class kid who did go to university, and could not have gone without a grant from which I contributed to the household, I have little love for New Labour)

Yes, I am saying that most of the 40% of kids who attend university are not working class. (How baffling, that £9,000 per year in tuition fees is excluding poorer kids from attending! I wonder why that could possibly be?!)

Maybe worry less about my partner's knowledge and more about your own, babes.

Prove me wrong, if you want. With stats, rather than bullshit. I'll wait.

This is my FIL with his children. It’s awful OP. I think it is really controlling behaviour. My step mother in law is just a pain in the hole. Can’t let her husband do anything alone with his adult children. Just a mirror of what you wrote, down to the phone being on speaker phone. The man can’t even answer his own phone. I am not liked as I gave my FIL the only grandchildren from all the adult kids. Her children never married or had kids and I think that disappointed her. I would try and work out if she goes anywhere regularly on her own and intercept your father that way. We know a day she regularly goes to something and my husband will always try and ring when she is out. I have told my husband I will come back and haunt him if he ever treated the children like that. But like you are we are happy he has someone but why can’t there be a bit space for alone time with your adult children .

Yeah I agree with you - apologies, I can see why that grated. It was a bit of a throwaway rant on my part and I should've thought more carefully, sorry!

New Labour were transformative for my partner, even though she hates Blair as much as the next socialist. She didn't have to pay any tuition fees and got a maintenance grant - like you (the EMA, right?) - that enabled her to escape home.

(I didn't have to pay fees, either, but I think that was maybe to do with the Welsh Government... that was 2003-06; partner is 10 years older and from England).

Ugh, that all sounds horribly familiar, yeah. I'm so sorry for your husband! Great that he has your support, though - you sound like you really "get it", which is so helpful, honestly. And also brilliant that you are raising your kids differently!

My stepmum's kids aren't married and don't have kids, maybe she's a bit bitter about that, idk. They are mid-late 30s so not spring chickens (though people are having kids later and later, I guess!). In a way, I feel like it would be easier if we DID have kids, because then we could do what my sister does, i.e. mediate our relationship with dad + stepmum through the kids! But I'm only half-serious; I'm sure the situation would just reach a whole 'nother level of bullshittery if that was actually the case...

I will try to find out when she regularly goes to something and call him then, good thinking! Thank you.

Ah that’s what I was wondering! So high functioning women with ADHD can be really sensitive to aspects of social interaction - a sensitivity to rejection so potentially your SM holds fairly unpleasant views but isn’t targeting you if that makes sense but it may feel like a more personal attack for you. And you’ve alluded to a childhood where parents were pretty unstable which can often lead people to be very vigilant towards threats - understandably!

I mean I wouldn’t want to spent time with someone who has values opposing mine but it sounds like you would see so much less of your dad which would be hard. I would find it hard not to challenge statements but it’s a lot of energy to expend if change in her attitude is unlikely.

I think a clear chat with your dad.. and if that’s not effective maybe a session or two with a neutral person where you can figure out how best to get your needs met while protecting yourself and probably some acceptance around where your dad is! Good luck with it!

I qualified in 1994. I lived at home, went to the local university and contributed to the household from my maintenance grant.

New Labour introduced tuition fees in 1998. The Conservatives abolished the maintenance loan in 2015.

Few people from the council estate where I lived want a starting point of approx £50k debt before needing to fund maintenance . Tuition fees have massively reduced social mobility (and greatly reduced social diversity within medicine).

First of all: bloody well done, for getting to where you've got to. That can't have been easy, to put it mildly.

Secondly: I agree with you completely, about everything you've said here, as does my partner - literally could not agree with you more. For her, it's one of those tricky situations where:

(a) New Labour saved her life via the EMA (I'm not exaggerating; I won't go into her story, let's just say she grew up in care)

AND

(b) She hates them for bringing in tuition fees - for precisely the reasons you've outlined here. Her (very bright) niece had 3 kids by the age of 18 and is living on benefits. Her other niece died in her 20s. No escape from the shit they all dealt with - apart from, at the time, education - but not anymore, due to fees.

Thirdly: I did join the picket lines when the junior doctors were striking, if that's any consolation for my previous comments...

Blast these wretched dads who don't make any time for a relationship with their adult kids when a new woman comes along. My sister and I had the same thing after our mother died and Dad eventually got a new companion. While we were delighted that he had someone, he refused point-blank to see us without her. When we rang him, she would join in the conversation. The whole thing was maddening. (I say "was" because he's passed away now.) But yeah, he let her take over all interactions with him, and if she wasn't there, he just wasn't interested in us. It wasn't nice.

I'm so sorry you went through a similar thing. It's bullshit innit. Hope you are doing ok now. ❤

I do think men are missing a massive trick by outsourcing social relationships to their female partners, tbh. Whether that's mediating their relationship with their children or buying the husband's family birthday presents, organising the diary, all that kinda stuff. Because what if they split up? Or the woman dies before the man? They're just fucked then, right?!

A few years back, my stepmum's kid fell ill in Asia. She ended up getting a flight out there to stay with her kid for a month bc they weren't able to travel home. My dad was forlorn, just a mess. Totally isolated, no idea what to do with himself. Drinking even more than usual, telling me to never let go of my friends (the implication being that he had let go of his, and now nobody was around for him). Just bc she'd gone to help her kid for a month. I felt bad for him but it was also sort of pathetic, really.

After this snarky response, I am 100% on your stepmother's side.

Are you kidding me?! 😂 Someone asks whether I’m saying that most uni students aren’t working class; they insult my partner in the process; I reply, saying yes, that is EXACTLY what I’m saying, stop insulting my partner; I give them the opportunity to provide evidence that proves my statement wrong; and I’M the one being “snarky”?!

I’m not sure how to interpret that, aside from (a) you’re not that bright; (b) you don’t have a partner who would stand up for you, and this concept is therefore alien to you; or (c) an unenviable combo of (a) and (b). Sorry for your loss, I guess?!

I am glad you’re on my stepmother’s side; you sound a lot like her 😂

Stats - From the department of education

Lower social class groups represent 28 per cent of the total entrants to full-time undergraduate study, a lower share than their 39 per cent in the UK population as a whole.

While the latest figure is still far higher than the 20% who had progressed to university in 2011-12, before the introduction of the £9,000 undergraduate tuition fee, the year-on-year fall has alarmed advocates for social mobility.

So, I'm not entirely sure how the above would translate into 'one working-class kid in each year group'... Babes.

While your partner has direct experience of the sector, the demographic of any student intake varies considerably from one subject to another and also across institutions. Perhaps their experience would not be representative of staff at different institutions and teaching different subjects.