to want to see my Dad without my (awful) stepmum sometimes?

[LoveIsAVerb]

Hi all. I'm new here, go gentle!

Around this time of year, I have my annual argument with my stepmother. It was pretty low-key this year: at our annual pre-Christmas get together, she made a few snarky comments; I told her to pipe down after the final snarky comment; and she apologised. (More detail on that later!)

But it's raised a perennial issue: my stepmother and I fundamentally do not get on, and I would really like to see my Dad occasionally without her being there. But this never happens. Around this time every year, following my annual tiff with my stepmum, my sister (42, two kids) and I (40, no kids) have a word with my Dad - just "hey Dad, it would be really nice to hang out together without stepmum being there". After that, we usually have ONE walk together, he's a bit awkward about the whole thing, and then it just goes back to normal, i.e. her always being there.

It's not just that she's always there when we see him, either. Even when we call his mobile, he always puts us on speaker so that she can be involved in the conversation. We hardly ever even get to text privately; he routes all texts through the group family chat, which includes him, her, my sister and I, and my stepsisters.

Dad and stepmum have been married for 20-odd years. He left my mother for her (he was having an affair with her). I'm not particularly arsed about that tbh; mum also had affairs. I'd like to state upfront that I haven't put her into some "Evil Stepmother" trope; I'm happy that he's found someone. It's not the "stepmum" factor; it's specifically about HER, as an individual. We have wildly different values. She comes from Old Money and is, frankly, a massive snob. (My Dad came from nothing, for context, but made pretty good money by working his way up in a company, back when that was a possibility!)

This clash in values tends to be where our arguments stem from. This year, for example, at the annual Christmas get-together:

• One of the dogs spilt my sister's drink over the table. It's this super-expensive, ornate, carved wooden table with a glass top. Stepmum FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, literally shrieking, talking about how they'd need to get it professionally cleaned etc etc. It was literally a bit of prosecco. My sister was mortified and left soon after.
• My stepsister's fella (early 30s), an ordinary lower-middle-class bloke from Birmingham, mentioned that his mother isn't much of a wine drinker, she thinks Echo Falls is brilliant. To which, again, stepmother SHRIEKS with laughter. She's literally a millionnaire. Laughing at this ordinary working-class woman who doesn't know about wine. It made me feel physically sick. Bearing in mind, too, that my partner (50f) was also there, and she grew up in care, on the absolute bones of her arse; Echo Falls would've been a distant fucking DREAM.
• My sister and I gave Dad and stepmum a hamper with loads of posh food in it for Xmas. I wrapped it in cellophane and ribbons and whatnot. I made a joke about how shit I am at wrapping things (context: I'm from South Wales, self-deprecation is endemic to our humour). She shrieks: "Oh I bet you relished the opportunity to skive off work for a bit to wrap it!" I work 60-hour weeks for a human rights organisation. She is an ex-doctor, and (endemic to the profession, in my experience!) therefore thinks she is better than everyone else. (This final comment was when I told her to pipe down, and she apologised, while shrieking.)

I just feel like whenever I'm at her (perfect show-home) house, I'm playing a bit-part in a fantasy M&S advert - with her at the centre. I never feel comfortable there, because if a drink gets spilled or you get too close to some expensive item of homeware, all hell breaks loose. Don't get me wrong: she cooks, she hosts, that's very generous of her. But it's The Stepmum Show, constantly. She takes over the conversation, she's not funny (unforgivably, imo!), she's just incredibly UP herself - and, as I said, a massive snob. The above is the tip of the iceberg, honestly. She literally thinks people who weren't born into inherited wealth are basically lazy and stupid.

She's always been a bit weird with me tbh. E.g. when I was about 20, we had a blazing row about something or other, and she apologised afterwards and told me straight-up that she is intimidated by my intelligence. I mean honestly, wtf?! Even if you FELT it, would you SAY it?! But she does seem majorly insecure, like she had a very good education but was essentially educated above her intelligence because her parents were rich; she seems very uncomfortably with the fact (which I LOVE) that intelligence is pretty equally distributed among the population, and you cannot fucking BUY it, however hard you try.

I'm ranting, sorry!

Everyone who's met her agrees that she's awful, a snob, and wtf is Dad doing with her - but Dad seems, or acts, oblivious. As I said, he's from a very working-class, South Wales background. He never sees his friends anymore, really; they obviously think she's a stuck-up bitch. He is also more or a less a functioning alcoholic at this point. Getting slowly sozzled on posh wine while she runs the Stepmum Show and offends everyone, seemingly obliviously.

One more example of what she's like: a few years back, she and my Dad went on a weekend away for his best mate's 60th. She took one of his childhood friends aside and said: "Do you mind not talking about your childhood memories this weekend? I don't really like hearing about times before [Dad] and I were together."

My sister is a peacekeeper, plus Dad and stepmum do a huge amount to help with their kids (she is not entirely evil - she is very generous in helping with the kids). So she is not one to rock the boat. She also lives very close to them, and he helps her out a lot, sees her a lot, etc. I only live about 20 miles away, mind, but he never comes up here (and when he does, it's always with stepmum).

I'm wondering wtf to do, tbh. I love my Dad and I know he loves me. More than that, we LIKE each other; we get along great. But she just takes over every single interaction and it's really getting on my tits and affecting my relationship with him.

I'm not stupid: I know I'm not gonna change her and he's not gonna leave her. So I'm trying to think what to do that wouldn't just be me ranting. I was thinking of maybe writing him an email (presuming she doesn't check his emails as well as answer his phone, but who knows, honestly). Just explaining how I feel. Especially, explaining that I'm not avoiding HIM (I'm really worried that he thinks I am), that the problem isn't HIM, it's HER (though the problem is also, let's face it, him being a bit fucking useless in a Man way). And just asking if we can spend time together without her. But I don't want to make his life more difficult for him, either. But an email could help because he wouldn't immediately FORGET it (which he has a tendency to do with phone calls, probably because of the whole high-functioning alcoholic thing), and he could read back over it, and tbh I'm better at communicating via writing than in person / on the phone anyway, and he could have some time to process it?

Is this just a losing battle, do I just need to get over it?!

Thanks so much in advance for any advice / shared stories / etc! <3

YES to this, too! Thank you! Lol at your struck-through comment too, ha! But yeah I need to be as subtle as a sledgehammer, I think

Gahhh yeah that does sound very similar - the lifelong friends drifting away (they also say they don't feel welcome, that she looks down on them, etc), the Dad settling for a quiet life, the FUCKING SPEAKER PHONE THINGGGGG!!!!! 😅Go you for just carrying on talking and politely pointing out that she's being rude with that, at least!

And yeah - you say something about it, it stops for a while, then normal behaviour resumes... So frustrating.

But you're right: not within our power to change.

Thank you for your sympathy. Have some back! I appreciate it. ❤

Well I think she sounds awful. It's true that she's not going away but I don't think it's unreasonable to limit your contact with her. Maybe just stick with an hour visit for a quick cuppa now and again rather than a whole day/dinner type occasion? Small doses might be easier to stomach.

There seems to be a lot of opportunity for you to spend time alone with your dad if you really wanted to, and if it’s not all on your terms? (Favourite pub etc)
Football mornings, DIY projects, time she’s with her kids or friends etc.

Maybe just start there, meet him on that level and spend quality time with him. It might make him realize how important it is to you. But as much as you say you want to spend time with him, is how many excuses you are using for not doing it, unless it’s in the way you prefer? Just start somewhere.

From what you say she doesn’t sound pleasant so I get that but it does sound like you also make sweeping generalisations that are going to provoke people and have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I guess I just wonder do others perceive her like you do because if I was your sister no way would I leave me child with someone who I thought worked with kids because they can’t advocate for themselves - sounds sinister! But then I work in healthcare and with kids and know there are good people and assholes in all professionals and from all social backgrounds. I think the frustration comes from your dad involving her in everything and I get it - that would really annoy me, but unless she’s abusive doesn’t your dad have a responsibility to you to develop his own relationship? Interestingly I know we just get a snapshot but you sound like her a bit?! Very strong opinions, want to be in charge and manage the scenario and dislike those you are a bit different to you!

The exclamation button seems to be overcompensating...

Sorry if I sound really thick, but you know when you say I sound like I've got a "chip on my shoulder" - what do you mean by that, exactly?! A couple of previous commenters have said the same thing, so obviously it's an issue I should look at! But I'm not quite sure what is meant by it, because I always thought "having a chip on your shoulder" meant you're really easily offended? And I'm literally the opposite of easily offendable - which is why this situation just knocks me for six: I am so rarely offended that I'm not quite sure how to deal with it when I am!

But perhaps that's not what you mean?!

I just looked it up and have seen other definitions saying e.g. quick to anger, always up for a fight - which, tbf, is actually pretty accurate! Ironically, people have told me since I was a literal child that I've got my Dad's temper... thanks, Dad! 😅(not to absolve myself of blame lol)

I'm actually quite nice in person, I'm just quite pissed off right now (less and less, though - talking about it is helping!)

ANYWAY, anyway...

"I guess I just wonder do others perceive her like you do because if I was your sister no way would I leave me child with someone who I thought worked with kids because they can’t advocate for themselves - sounds sinister"

• On the first bit: Yes, everyone I know perceives her like I do, my Dad's lifelone friends, also his parents (before they passed away), his sister and brothers, my own sister, her friends, literally everyone I know perceives her like I do - this is not a "me" thing, unfortunately (that would be easier to deal with!)
• On the second bit: Sorry if I was unclear before; what I meant was: she is very good with kids, and always willing to help out! The rest of my previous comment was more of an observation from me, about people who can be quite good with kids and animals - but shit with adults - and how, in my (limited) experience, I've observed that trait among people who have some control issues, i.e. they gravitate towards animals and kids because they don't answer back. That was a sweeping generalisation, though, of course - some people are just nice!! As you said: "there are good people and assholes in all professionals and from all social backgrounds" - TOTALLY. God, the stories I could tell you about the nonprofit world! The EGOS!!!

"unless she’s abusive doesn’t your dad have a responsibility to you to develop his own relationship?"

• Yes, of course! And I'm glad he is with someone. I'm just trying to figure out - STILL!! - how to navigate this particular individual.
• It's not the relationship that's the problem. It's her, as a person. (People here seem to not believe me about this, but I'm not sure how to prove it!!)

"Interestingly I know we just get a snapshot but you sound like her a bit?! Very strong opinions, want to be in charge and manage the scenario and dislike those you are a bit different to you!"

• TAKE IT BACK!!! ;)
• Hahaha ok I'll take that one, in that I do have strong opinions.
• I don't like being in charge, weirdly! I know it would suit my personality but I'm not a huge fan of it (actively avoid management roles etc., I do not want to deal with other people's BS - perhaps that's its own issue lol).
• I don't dislike those who are different from me - my friends are a very motley crew!! - but I do dislike people who think they are better than others by virtue of money, like that is one of my pet peeves, so there is a huge values clash here, which is what's making it so hard.

Buuuurn! 😂This is hilarious because a fair amount of my work involves editing, and I spend an UNTOLD AMOUNT of time deleting exclamation marks, even "having a sit down" with authors to explain why they need to NEVER, EVER use one (or VERY judicious use). So I think you're (unintentionally) spot on, in that I "overcompensate" for this in nonprofessional writing... Sorry!!

Honestly I don't think my dad is genuinely puzzled. He knows what I think and it just doesn't fit into what he wants to hear, so he just ignores it until he thinks it will go away. What he's puzzled at is why this technique isn't working. Why am I not just acting like an obedient child and falling back into place?

So my advice is don't get too wrapped up in trying to make them understand your point of view. Some people deliberately use not understanding as a way of getting what they want because they know you'll tie yourself up in knots trying.

Just have a honest conversation with your dad and use it as a line in the sand. If after that nothing changes, then you know you tried.

Don't go round in circles and second guess yourself. It just makes you miserable.

Thank you so much for your advice, I truly appreciate it. I will do my best to follow it, too. Thank you, and I hope it gets a bit easier for you, too. ❤

(Is there a book called The Shit Dads Club yet? If not, shall we write it?!)

Something to mull over, for sure - thank you.

OP your style of writing seems to be very Tumblr influenced and it's exhausting to read. The endless exclamations and quips and generic Americanised internet speak of it all. Perhaps you should consider that your stepmother finds you extremely difficult too. I'm assuming you don't communicate this way IRL but if there is a chance you do, she might find this as overbearing and tiring and insufferable as you find her.

Ultimately I suspect there are more similarities between you than you realise. Your stepmother sounds annoying but not an actively bad person. Focus on the opportunities you've identified where you could spend some one-on-one time with your dad and when you do seen your stepmother, realise she probably feels as awkward and irritated as you do and try to get along as best you can.

It is a difficult situation but ultimately you can't eject her from your life entirely if you still want a relationship with your father.

This! So much this!!!!....

I'm sure you're a lovely person OP, but if you waffle on in person even a 1/3 of how much you do when writing. Then I'd probably be the one telling you to "pipe down". You seem massively fond of using 30 words where 3 will suffice.

I'm surprised at all these posts suggesting that the step mum is somehow at fault for always tagging along or listening in on calls and not "letting" the dad spend time alone with his adult children.

It's entirely down to the Dad. If he wanted to he would, and I bet his wife does encourage him to be sociable or contact his kids but he just doesn't want to. When my in laws were alive I used to have to literally force my DH to contact any of them, call them, meet up, buy gifts etc. He would never have bothered if I hadn't told him too, and his family still believed that it was somehow my fault and I was keeping him to myself rather than me actively wanting him to gtf out of the house and see them all.

I reckon if the wife wasn't kind enough to host these meet ups you'd probably never see your dad at all.

Maybe treat your dad to a specialist pamper session at the barber.

Pick him up and take him yourself.

I'd even write an invitation and mention that the barber is boys only.

Then afterwards take your dad out for lunch or a beer or a coffee. Just don't mention this bit on the invite.

I think OPs writing style is just fine, she is mulling this stuff over and responding to people, I'm sure she doesn't talk like that.

Apropos making friends with the stepmum, I don't think that would have worked as a strategy. I had an aunt who seems very similar to your DSM that I mentioned upthread. I had no skin in the game, so she was always very pleasant to me, but in a controlling sort of way.
So she made a point of trying to give me my Dgrans ring for my wedding even though her 3 female stepDCs also got married, and just generally made everything about her.

She isn't someone I would choose to spend time with because everything needs to be dissected and criticised and she was unkind to my 3 cousins.

So even if you did make loads of effort with her, there would always be something that would sour it, best to be distant and polite.

She may be rich, but she clearly has no class! The real old monied upper classes would never act like this. It sounds to me like she is not from what I would consider a posh background at all.

Having said that, I think you are exagerating everything. This may be how you see her, but all the things you have mentioned seem very trivial. Maybe you need to be more accepting of her knowing that she is somehow pretenting to be posh (just like Hyacith Bucket!). You can then laugh off her foibles without getting offended.

As for getting time alone with your DF, I think you need to engineer something that the DSM wouldn't enjoy. If you can make it something regular, she may turn up the first time but you can play the long game and hopefully she will give up.

I get what you're saying and you are right to a point but in my case my dad will agree with me, speak to her about it, she'll get upset and then she totally ignores him and carries on.
She makes him feel guilty for upsetting her so he falls back into line.
Now I accept that's his choice but I choose not to, I absolutely refuse to let her shout at me on the phone for expressing my opinion (and it's often something totally mundane). She seems to hate it when people disagree with her whereas I was raised to listen to others point of view.
Her own (adult) children are very passive and she's made it clear her late husband toed the line.

OP, I suspect in many ways you are very similar to your Dad, and over the years have fallen into a pattern of communication that is mostly comfortable, except on occasions when you realise it isn't (once a year when you decide to have a row about it). The trouble is, you're having a row with the wrong person.
The two people who can sort out the issues between you and your father are you and he. I suspect the problem isn't great enough to warrant the discomfort of doing that. If it was, it would already be sorted. Looking at it logically, you already make several excuses not to see him on his own (don't like football / can't ask him to help with DIY because 'lesbian butch' partner).

One other thing you may wish to think about. I suspect your stepmother isn't having an entirely wonderful life of it.

'functional alcoholic' 'sozzled in the corner' 'entering that stage of life where all that lifelong boozing affects your memory'
Guess what? She always tags along, makes bad jokes whenever one of his friend comes to join us (they've started to avoid joining us if she's there), takes over the conversation, and takes them both home early.

I wonder why your stepmother tags along when you take your functioning alcoholic father to the pub, and takes them home early?

It sounds really difficult but ultimately your stepmother just sounds annoying rather than evil. She's not going to change her personality any more than you can so you're not likely to ever get along well.
You do need to tolerate her at family gatherings though.
The problem is more with your dad tbh, he should be making more of an effort to have a relationship with you. DH has had similar issues with his dad, he likes his stepmother but she's just always there and FIL never initiates them spending time alone together. DH has in the past made an effort like buying tickets to things just for him and his dad which is fine but never reciprocated. DH has given up a bit now. Some men especially from that generation are just hopeless.
I think the best thing you can do is tell your dad you would like to sometimes see him alone, but without bringing your stepmother into it. At the end of the day she's his wife and he's not going to like hearing her slagged off.

It's just a clash of personalities. She probably feels the same way about you. It's perfectly reasonable for her to be upset if something is spilt on her furniture. Tbh You seem to have a bit of a "working class" inverted snobbery about her too.
Don't put anything in writing, honestly it will make things worse.
She isn't going away. Sounds like a normal family dynamic and you get on each others nerves. Try not to let her comments get to you but you also seem to bite unnecessarily. Try to stop that. It's not helpful

So I would use it in that manner - quick to get annoyed etc and maybe perceiving slights where there might not be any particularly meant! I’ve read lots of your posts and I can absolutely see where some comments SM has made where they are completely offensive but sometimes it just seems like you don’t like the fact she’s from a different background. I mean if I said everyone I met from the charity sector are pen pushers, refusing to do the front line work and looking to skim as much as they can financially, it would be offensive and rude and inaccurate and you’d probably dismiss me as prejudiced and ignorant… so writing off teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers, anyone who works with kids means that it’s hard to discern whether your complaints are valid or if she happens to be in a group you’ve written off! You mentioned it’s your pet peeve so you might be more alert to it. FWIW, I really dislike it too and it would annoy me, but I also know some doctors who don’t tell people their job because they feel people change how they behave towards them!

if everyone perceives her in the same manner - why would your sister leave her children with her?! Not to derail but that’s a very odd perspective to have that’s someone’s a horrible person but grand to mind my kids! But obviously not your choice!

I can’t recall but is there any possibility of neurodivergence playing a role within the dynamic between you? I do think having a clear chat (or via email with your dad) to outline what you would like your relationship to be like would be great. If he agrees, problem solved, just avoid her. If he says they are a package deal, that’s really tough, even if she was lovely you’d want some time away from her (the phone calls and group texts sound so much!) but if your dad insists, I think you’ll have to chose but that feels like it’s your dad that’s the issue. Maybe just going grey rock with the comments would help your frustration. I know lots of people who don’t have a relationship with a step parent but keep one with their own parent - as people have suggested invite him to something alone etc. It might also be helpful in that alone space to check how he is and the power dynamic in their relationship to make sure it is his choice. Best of luck with it, it’s definitely not an easy scenario to navigate.

It really does make sense. Not saying the step mum is stupid, but she clearly has a chip on her shoulder about her intelligence ( as evidenced by the jibes towards OP)

she might be reasonably intelligent but not super bright. She could have worked very hard at school and university to pass.

Also - neither of us know how Prince Harry’s baseline intelligence or work ethic, which are two factors that need to be present. Thick student + expensive education does not equal academic success. But average student + hard work+ expensive education could move the dial massively.

im guessing @Poppyseeds79 you are privately educated ( or have kids in private education) ? You seem touchy about it.

@LoveIsAVerb
Up thread you asked a question
"I do worry about Dad in this regard, too, because over the years I've noticed him becoming just a bit fucking USELESS without her, honestly. Socially, I mean. I think this is a man thing, though?! Like outsource all your relationship/social needs to your woman, then get increasingly useless at humaning?! Why?!"
I think possibly the answer to this also contains the answer but probably not the solution you want to your overarching question.
You dad sounds hugely emotionally avoidant, not uncommon for men of a certain age. She does all the stuff he can't tolerate... All the relationship stuff and all the emotions... You might say she's overly emotional dramatic Or as you see it-too much. Her presence allows him to keep avoiding. The problem with avoidance is for most people it's very very entrenched. On some level it works for him. If you got him on his own in the pub and tried to talk about feelings and your relationship I bet he'd be very uncomfortable and you would almost guarantee that he'd never want to be alone with you again. It's possible he's scared of being alone with you in case you 'talk'. On this basis my advice would be meet him where he's at. Go to the football, then build on that by going to a pub (if possible). Take small steps to build in non threatening time with him (so no feelings or relationship chat, chat football or beer or generic shit). Gradually gradually you might be able to titrate in some actual meaningful conversation, or you might not. At this stage you might need to accept what you can.....Limit your time with the anxious overcompensating step mum and set a boundary on things that are truly offensive. Good luck...

I completely relate to everything you've written :(
I even sent her a message inviting her for coffee which was ignored until I pressed DF, and she responded saying she didn't have my number saved and was too busy.
It's just a kind of horrible and unsettling feeling because even beyond our relationship it makes you worry what kind of person your parent is trusting and living with.