What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

[TowerRavenSeven]

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

The Brit's have behaved atrociously so many times, it's hard for us to judge anyone!

YANBU to be astounded this was someone's opening conversation at a party.

What any of us might think we might have said, with time to think about it, and not being in this situation, might well not be what came into our heads at that point in time.

Not strange at all. Britain has never fully acknowledged let alone apologised for the trauma of the Empire. Statues still stand in honour of some of its worst perpetrators. History is still taught in schools in a one-sided manner. There is a substantial proportion of the population, including many sitting MPs, who believe the Empire was the best of British - unashamedly so. Relatively speaking, Germany has prostrated itself on the international stage with grief and remorse. So no, not strange at all.

many years ago in a restaurant with polish people and other nations and a German guy. All of them were young guys. Someone mentioned lodz in Poland. And the German boy asked about it and where was it. I am ashamed to say i said it is famous for a German atrocity in the war. He looked so sad. I was only being honest but it was not for him to be ashamed.

Mao Zedong killed tens of millions of people
actually.

so naturally we were speaking about Germany

So let me see if I've got this right. You were speaking about things like beer, bratwurst, cars, manufacturing industry more generally, football rivalry (I'm sure you were told that Germany's main football rival is the Netherlands, not England), how Lidl is great but Waitrose is a bit nicer. That sort of thing.

That's what you talked about, right?

I mean, obviously you wouldn't bring up, in a social/acquaintance/party context, something utterly awful that happened nearly 100 years ago and that none of the people there, or their parents, could possibly have been involved in?

You wouldn't be the kind of person who thinks that, two generations and 84 million people further on, it's somehow appropriate to remind a German person whom you have just met about that time, because they happen to have been born in roughly the same few thousand square kilometres? Because, as PP have pointed out, they have had the legacy of National Socialism beaten out of them for nearly three generations now.

So you were just chatting about beer and bratwurst and BMWs, and suddenly, for no reason at all, this woman went off with "you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust?".

I mean, if you went to a party and met some Indian people, and they started going on about "Oh, you're a Brit, well, what about that Amritsar massacre, eh?", you would rightly feel very upset. So, just as polite Indian people wouldn't talk about that, you definitely ensured that the Holocaust didn't come up at all. This woman just totally went off on one, totally unprompted.

Right? Or did I miss some detail of the conversation?

Sorry I am a bit confused @pizzaHeart

How do you know what the woman said to @TowerRavenSeven about her parents being retired and living in the south of Germany? OP didn't mention those details, did she?

Exactly this. I feel there is some important contextual information missing here.

the uk has Dresden

It's because the victims were Jewish. Sadly they are seen by many as undeserving of sympathy. It's the old story.

@DarkAether Dresden is in thousands and less than the bombing of London.

I don't think it's something that should ever be forgotten, that age old saying about history repeating itself should always be remembered and events like this need to stay as history rather than current events. But I don't think any German not involved in the war (so realistically almost all Germans bar a few who fought still kicking around) should ever be blamed, feel blamed or have to apologise for the crimes committed by others. I feel similarly about slavery. Those alive now should not be held accountable for crimes they didn't commit. So if you agree you could say something along those lines 🤷🏻‍♀️

I would say it is like Britain and the Atlantic Slave trade. I am not responsible for the slavery of millions of black Africans. But Britain was and it helped create what Britain is today.

Sorry, of course not I was just trying to illustrate my point that more context was needed.

I think she needs to understand the difference between on the one hand remembering and learning for it (although we don’t seem to have learnt anything as a species, looking at the things happening today) and on the other hand expecting Germans to go about bowed down with shame.

No one sensible expects the latter - if they did, they’d have to apply the same to many other countries too.

But it’s such an appalling episode in human history that we have to keep remembering it, and why and how it happened. Not holding out much hope though!

Thanks, after I posted I realised that was what you were trying to do!

I don't think you are removed from a country's history. UK benefited financially from slavery and colonies. And that wealth is still there today. Passed down through families. UK is rich because it was rich 200 or so years ago. But worth bearing in mind slave trade wasn't done by all the population of the UK, just a handful. Same for Holocaust. I think it's perfectly understandable that Germans feel guilty. It's normal. If you are proud of your country's achievements, it's normal to also feel guilt and remorse when genocide takes place. It's far better than denying it altogether like Turkey has with the Armenian genocide. It's part of belonging to a nation.

@TowerRavenSeven have you considered cultural differences? Germans don't beat around the bush about anything. They don't find it that offensive and I doubt it was that deep. It shows that you are British because you didn't know what to say and now think about something to say. Just state your view.

The Holocaust was obviously terrible and shouldn't be forgotten. Maybe she expressed herself in a very clumsy way. Again, Germans don't think about how to say things to not offend anyone. It's actually offensive to not be direct as it seems disingenuous.

She just brought it up herself out of the blue, with no conversation before it?!
It's like something out of Harry Enfield.
Anyone remember "I must apologise on behalf of my country!" guy?! 😁

Yeah.... I think the problem is that the "final solution" might have been created by Nazis, but it was largely carried out at the time by "ordinary" Germans. Assisted in some cases by Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.

But I agree that current day Germans shouldn't bear any guilt for the wrongs of their grandparents and great grandparents. Current day Germans have no responsibility for it.

At the same time, the holocaust should not be forgotten by anybody

Descendant of German Jews here. I don't think Germans today need to feel guilty, but I don't think we should 'move on' from it either. I would have been interested to hear more from her about her experiences of being guilt-tripped and how she thinks the Holocaust should be memorialised.

‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”

It sounds like a joke?? Was it supposed to be a joke? I can't imagine anyone bringing that up as a serious question in a conversation?

Very risky subject matter to be bringing up with people you don't know very well!

Do you think maybe you and lots of people on the I threat don’t understand the nuances and complexities of how the Holocaust is discussed and treated within Germany?

how do you know her position is horrifying? It might be an entirely reasonable position - she wasn’t saying don’t discuss the Holocaust - sounds like she was talking about imposing guilt on current generations.

it would be surprising if it came out of nowhere. Maybe you said something that SHE foind horrifying with you realising it

She said move on from it. Not forget it happened.

My German friends are acutely aware of their country's history and role in WWII, particularly the Holocaust. By contrast many British people seem blissfully unaware of UKs colonial past or even the current territories. I can't comment on other cultures. If one of my German friends made this comment I wouldn't be shocked or horrified I would taken it they meant it in good faith, not as some sort of Holocaust apology. That's based only on a small sample of German people I know, but I should add i lived there briefly 30 years ago and found the same acceptance there at that time.

Did she live near or around somewhere known for it ?

I know alot of places are so well known for something people forget there are people who actually live there = dachau/Berlin/Nuremberg ect.